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Subject: Downtime? rss

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Eugene
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A preposterous notion, perhaps, for a game that many have wrongly dismissed as devoid of choices. But now that I'm up to about 25 plays of KB, I'm finding my turns taking increasingly longer to execute as I try to optimize special placement powers. We've been playing strictly 2p games, and playing for blood. Now this is fine when it's one-on-one. But when there are four sitting around the table? I can foresee KB sinking into that awful Dominion morass that happens when all players have +1 Action, +1 Action, +1 Action to the ends of the earth decks. Has anyone experienced this with KB? Is it destined to be for me yet another 2p-only game?
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Chris Berger
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garygarison wrote:
A preposterous notion, perhaps, for a game that many have wrongly dismissed as devoid of choices. But now that I'm up to about 25 plays of KB, I'm finding my turns taking increasingly longer to execute as I try to optimize special placement powers. We've been playing strictly 2p games, and playing for blood. Now this is fine when it's one-on-one. But when there are four sitting around the table? I can foresee KB sinking into that awful Dominion morass that happens when all players have +1 Action, +1 Action, +1 Action to the ends of the earth decks. Has anyone experienced this with KB? Is it destined to be for me yet another 2p-only game?


I think it's a better game with 4, but yeah, there's the possibility for downtime. But you should use that downtime to plan your turn so that you're not the culprit. If your turn takes more than 30 seconds more than twice a game, I think you're taking too long. You have 3 other players' turns to plan your move and you only should be doing the calculations on your turn if the player before you blocked you.
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Eugene
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30 seconds? Oh god, we're consistently taking at least one minute a turn. And I'm not AP prone in the least.
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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"what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
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arkayn wrote:
garygarison wrote:
A preposterous notion, perhaps, for a game that many have wrongly dismissed as devoid of choices. But now that I'm up to about 25 plays of KB, I'm finding my turns taking increasingly longer to execute as I try to optimize special placement powers. We've been playing strictly 2p games, and playing for blood. Now this is fine when it's one-on-one. But when there are four sitting around the table? I can foresee KB sinking into that awful Dominion morass that happens when all players have +1 Action, +1 Action, +1 Action to the ends of the earth decks. Has anyone experienced this with KB? Is it destined to be for me yet another 2p-only game?


I think it's a better game with 4, but yeah, there's the possibility for downtime. But you should use that downtime to plan your turn so that you're not the culprit. If your turn takes more than 30 seconds more than twice a game, I think you're taking too long. You have 3 other players' turns to plan your move and you only should be doing the calculations on your turn if the player before you blocked you.


Its easy to get blocked by other players which makes planning done during the turns of others less valuable. Our turns typically last a minute or 2.
 
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Chris Berger
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Redward wrote:
Its easy to get blocked by other players which makes planning done during the turns of others less valuable. Our turns typically last a minute or 2.


So you never plan just in case you might get blocked? My turn typically consists of however much time it takes to physically move the pieces from my supply to the board. Occasionally it starts with "... oh crap, is it my turn?", in which case 2 minutes or so is more common. Or, "oh damnit, you blocked me, sorry guys this might take a minute..."

Even in cases where you get blocked, a lot of time you can foresee it and have a backup plan...
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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"what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
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arkayn wrote:
Redward wrote:
Its easy to get blocked by other players which makes planning done during the turns of others less valuable. Our turns typically last a minute or 2.


So you never plan just in case you might get blocked? My turn typically consists of however much time it takes to physically move the pieces from my supply to the board. Occasionally it starts with "... oh crap, is it my turn?", in which case 2 minutes or so is more common. Or, "oh damnit, you blocked me, sorry guys this might take a minute..."

Even in cases where you get blocked, a lot of time you can foresee it and have a backup plan...


During the last 3 quarters of the game I tend to have 4-6 special ability tiles and it is a bit much to plan for every contengcy with that many factors to consider. This is particularly true when playing with Lords, Farmers, and other more complicated victory gaining options. I still probably only take a minute or two. I don't think that is too bad. If you are able to go faster than great but I need a sec to look at my options and the board changes too much between turns to have a solid plan in place at that point (at least for me).

 
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Chris Berger
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Redward wrote:
During the last 3 quarters of the game I tend to have 4-6 special ability tiles and it is a bit much to plan for every contengcy with that many factors to consider. This is particularly true when playing with Lords, Farmers, and other more complicated victory gaining options. I still probably only take a minute or two. I don't think that is too bad. If you are able to go faster than great but I need a sec to look at my options and the board changes too much between turns to have a solid plan in place at that point (at least for me).


Are we talking about a 4 player game? Because there's only an average of maybe 3.5 tokens per player in a 4 player game (figuring 3 boards with 4 and one board with 2). I may have overstated a little saying I don't take more than 30 seconds more than twice a game, but our 4 player games have been taking maybe 30 minutes - certainly not much more than that.

Of course, I'm also a big believer in not overthinking things too much. After playing a game a bunch of times, moves become intuitive - when learning or getting familiar with a game, I'd rather play by feel and just see how things turn out than waste a lot of time optimizing every move.

Take Twilight Struggle, for example - you have probably 100 different options every time you take a move. A decent player can probably eliminate 95 of those without even thinking and then decide which of the other 5 moves gives the best return. If I'm playing the game for the first or second time, it's a huge waste of everyone's time for me to puzzle through the 100 possible moves and try to figure out the optimal, so just pick something that seems reasonable and do it - if it's a bad move, then I'll learn something for next time.
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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"what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
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arkayn wrote:

Are we talking about a 4 player game? Because there's only an average of maybe 3.5 tokens per player in a 4 player game (figuring 3 boards with 4 and one board with 2). I may have overstated a little saying I don't take more than 30 seconds more than twice a game, but our 4 player games have been taking maybe 30 minutes - certainly not much more than that.


This would be in 2-4 player games. I have been able to maintain a lead on getting to the powers for whatever reason. I am sure this will change over time.

arkayn wrote:

Of course, I'm also a big believer in not over thinking things too much. After playing a game a bunch of times, moves become intuitive - when learning or getting familiar with a game, I'd rather play by feel and just see how things turn out than waste a lot of time optimizing every move.


I generally find myself playing rather poorly if I go primarily by intuition but if I allow myself a few extra seconds to consider my priorities I do much much better. In KB it is really really easy to make a mistake (in my experience). Because of this it is really important to think about how you are committing your pieces. Again, that is just my experience.
 
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Martin G
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Cary, it's mitigated by the fact that in a 4p game, each player will have half as many bonus tokens on average, and that more spots will have already been taken so there are less options to consider.
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Elijah Lau
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The main selling points of KB is that it's simple and fast. AP would kill the fun out of this game.

The cool part of the game - having a few options to consider per turn and the pros and cons of each option is not easily visible - is unfortunately the cause of AP also.

While it depends on the playing group, I think players have to remind themselves and each other to keep the game moving. I was very fortunate to have played my first game at a boardgame cafe that was near closing time. So we all worked together to keep the game zipping along and managed to finish just before closing time!
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