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Subject: Top 5 ideas for a M&M Expansion IMO rss

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Darth Mallen
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First off--love the game as is--no NEED for an expansion. Second, I fully admit that many of these ideas have already been shared by others on these forums--I have reviewed them, added my own, given them all some thought and filtered the possibilities down to these self serving opinions...My first goal is to generate discussion that ultimately leads to a second goal of actually seeing an expansion come to fruition--I claim no proprietary right to any ideas discussed.

In no particular order:
1. New player and NPC ships (and cards)--Who doesn't want to see this and adding mid range player ships (no glory point, cheaper than frigate/galleon and benefits over sloop and flute) would be interesting and does not seem like it would upset balance. Something like a Brig/Brigantine, Barque, West Indiaman or Merchantman would be welcome. It probably makes the most sense to add 2 new types and with 1 better suited for pirating (Brigantine?) and 1 better suited for merchant (Merchantman?). Adding a treasure galleon as an NPC ship brought out by an event card would also be cool (maybe it generates 2 bounties when attacked and you draw more cargo cards to determine amount of gold) + if you are adding new medium grade player ships why not a new medium pirate NPC ship as well? arrrh Also, I think you should also be able to draw cargo cards (gold) for besting NPC pirates (if you are a pirate receiving no reward)--it just seems like they would also have gold for the plundering if naval boats do? Maybe the pirate player knows where to look for it--while the merchant is content with simply collecting the reward?

2. Existing Variants: Cutthroat, Ports/Forts and Terrors of the Deep--The Cutthroat variant is so elegant and simple yet what an improvement to the rules (if you lean towards pirating at some point in the game)--thank you, Christian! I included this in my list as I enjoy it to such an extent--I understand that the 'all merchant all the time' player would not agree as it does move the balance more towards a favorable pirating environment. I esp. enjoy knowing that you can't simply sail past me without me getting a scouting attempt...like the NPC boats already got--this is just more consistent and believable. The manuverability adjustment on the galleon (while leaving the Man o' War as is) seems more accurate as well. I have even 'updated' my galleon cards to reflect this variant--its my game so you have to play by my rules--haha.


I have not actually played the Ports and Forts variant, but like the idea of being able to bombard forts (in certain ports) for the potential of a ransom type payout to avoid shipping blockade, etc.--attempt would generate bounty and success would be worth a glory point/and a certain amount of gold. This could work similar to current ship combat--with fort only choosing the shoot option and pirate always having the flee option available. Pirates could choose to 'board' or in this case invade though would typically face concerning odds as the fort would be well defended.

Terrors of the Deep adds a fantasy/cool element to the game and is inherently balanced towards pirate vs. merchant. How can you not like this extra addition and spend some color ink and time on it?

3. Expanded map--New sea zones--yes please! In my mind, it makes the most sense to expand the left top side of the map. Granted the L shape is not ideal, however this could work with an overlapping approach--while storing cards, etc. in the space the L leaves open (the Atlantic Ocean). Essentially S. Florida, Florida Keys +/- the Bahamas would be on the 1 layer portion of the expansion (outlined in red in pic) while the currently unrepresented portion of N. America would be 2 layers so that everything set level on table. The expansion would not necessarily need to be perfectly rectangle and may make sense to cut at sea zone borders for the overlapping section? Notice that this approach would not interfere with the NPC card placement portion of the existing board, though would need to include a place for warring country flags.This would also allow for an eventual European trade expansion--primarily directed at merchants--where the NPC card portion of current board would be moved to the top of this expansion and replaced by open sea zones--the furthest seazones to the right would go to various European ports (represented by text in sea zone) and take merchant out of play for a couple turns.


4. New Cards--Event, Rumor, Mission, Glory and Captain cards--this is a no brainer and honestly would be enough to get me to buy an expansion. Might as well include corrected versions mentioned in the error list while you are at it...I wouldn't even mind new cargo cards--seems like I always get stuck shuffling these.

5. Fleets--I like the idea of allowing one additional ship in 'fleet'. Essentially as a pirate this could be any ship that you commandeer through crew combat (current crew would be split and recruited in ports as normal). If you own a frigate for instance, then you can add any other ship from your potential ship types--you cannot own 2 of the same ship type (for simplicity's sake in terms of # models needed). This ship can be kept in your fleet or sold back at a port you are allowed in--would not apply to merchant tokens (these ships are assumed to be worthless). The extra ship would add complexity--but expansions are optional complexity, right? Half of the extra ship's manuverability (rounded down) would be added to your own for purposes of merchant raids and seamanship rolls (extra die when manuverability is 2 or more higher than opponent). The extra ship could carry additional cargo and gold, cards, etc. could be split between them while not in combat. The extra ship also potentially adds cannons to successful attacks. Glory cards that force leadership rolls on pirates (but not merchants) with more than 1 ship could be added to force mutiny and loss of ship. While damage to multiple ships would still be applied by owner, the attacker of multiple ships decides which ship they are attacking. Now for merchants--the extra ship could either be purchased as port activity (permanently) or as a temporary escort (cheap, but leaves fleet upon entering next port). For a merchant the benefits would be similar to pirates: increase cargo hold, manuverability/# cannons and ability to split fortune. I think for simplicity's sake the 2 player ships would need to stay in the same seazone rather than have the ability to split. Your captain would always be on your main ship (ship card on your player board)--the extra ship card would be kept beside player board. Also probably easier to agree that the extra ship could not be upgraded/have special weapons (since this requires player board space). Probably easier to roll boarding attempts separately also?

Thanks again for the great game--I believe that it can only get better!

edit: corrected typo
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Darth Mallen
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An honorable mention would be a solo variant--other than 'figuring out the rules' solo play I have not tried one of these yet...
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Andrea Bellettini
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This one of my favorite game too!

I have to say that i like almost any of your expansion suggestion, in my opinion i would like to see:

- new ship class and PC (your #1)

- port and forts (and governors)

- expanded map maybe including Africa's Gold Coast and Arabian Sea

- a 5th player option controlling naval Ship/Captains

Bye and keep plundering!!! arrrharrrh
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Carlos Alves
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I love this game too. I have friends that loved to play this game.
They want something new for this game, some official expansions.

I liked your suggestions in this post and i think you should replace the place of this game developper.
Z-Man should hire you to design a new expansion for this cool game that has won a thematic award.

So i will wait for some signs/light from Z-Man to make this game alive rather than some new reprints...
 
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Matthew O'Malley
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Definitely agree I'd like an expansion, primarily so I could play with 5 if we have the people and the time. My votes would be for:

1. 5th player bits and board
2. Small board expansion northward, to provide space for a 5th player (put the "at-war" flags in the U.S. land space
3. Mid-range ships (1 merchant tilted, 1 pirate tilted) for player and NPC (much like Jeffrey requested)
4. More cards (not really necessary, but why not?) - especially I'd like more Event cards that don't add more ships, because I feel like the NPC ships don't move enough (are they supposed to Hunt even if they aren't activated?).
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Darth Mallen
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Matthew (and Andrea)--agree game pieces for a 5th player would also be more than welcomed.

I thought NPC ships do indeed hunt by hunt priority even if an event card with their flag is not up (as you enter their same sea zone, etc.) I felt the same (about not enough NPC movement) when initially playing the game, but can say that as a pirate there is typically plenty of NPC threat as you never know if that next movement event card is going to screw up your plans as you try to sneak by a Man o' War in an adjacent sea zone--in which case the NPC could automatically come after you (if you meet hunt priority criteria...and you will as a pirate).

I am disappointed in games where only one pirate NPC is drawn or only a couple nation's NPC boats get placed--this seems to be the rarity, though.
 
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Darth Mallen
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Carlos, I'm not going to hold my breath on doing anything outside of my current day job--haha. In all fairness, all I have done is pull these ideas together and rank them by my preference. I am thoroughly impressed with the game designer work on this game and hope they are the same guys that work on any expansions. I was hoping to generate feedback by this post so that they can better understand what current players would be interested to see. Hopefully this can result in us seeing an expansion to this already awesome game!
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Hi Jeffrey,

good ideas for the possible expansion!

I also say that I am very pleased that this game is so well playable with the standard rules. To back this up: the only house rules I've applied so far are:
- 1 in stead of 2 maneuverability for Galleons
- Each player draws 3 captain cards and chooses the one he likes best before the start of the game.
In my next game I will also include the Cutthroat variant rule:
- You may attack any player who moves through your sea zone (at the cost of 2 action points).

To react on your ideas:
1. New player and NPC ships (and cards). I like this too. A couple of new ship types will be nice (as you said: 2 medium types that don't give you a victory point). Additional to this I really like to see (NPC) ships with unique stats. It would be great to be able to capture a NPC ship with slightly better stats (a Sloop with 1 extra cannon, a Frigate with 1 more maneuverability) or with a unique ability (one extra movement action per turn, enemy rolls one less Seamanship die during an escape attempt) and slightly lower stats as a bit of compensation. When you draw an Event card with a NPC with a unique ship, then you draw the corresponding ship card from an expansion ship deck.

2. Existing Variants: Cutthroat, Ports/Forts and Terrors of the Deep

Cutthroat: I've been using 1 maneuverability for Galleons for a couple of plays and I like the change compared to Frigates and, to a lesser extent Man-o-Wars (with Sails). I will try the rules to attack a player who passes through your sea zone when it's not your turn.

I like the general idea to have forts in some ports that you can try to defeat and if successfull it would be possible for pirates with ships with much hit points and crew to enter these illegal ports. I can certainly imagine that some ports will have forts that can be battled (like the Black Pearl attacking towns in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie). Pirates can attempt to enter these illegal ports and raid to obtain some goods and gold, but at a cost to get damage to your ship from the fort's cannons and at the cost of some crew deaths toll because of the defending soldiers. Other ports can not be attempted to be entered by the rules: they just have too good defences (too much cannons and soldiers).

I've not tried Terrors of the Deep yet, but I have prepared the cards ready for action! It adds a nice game element. For a M&M expansion I'd vote to implement it partly: Maybe a Ghost Ship and a Maelstrom on the game board for some time, but not a Terror on the board during the entire game (starting in the first storm). Some M&M players don't like to get involved into combat. It's a great feat of Merchants & Marauders that every player can play how they prefer (a suitable captain helps ofcourse).

3. Expanded map. This is a nice idea in my opinion, but not a need-to-have for the game (maybe historically it would?) If we expand the map I wouldn't complain about an expansion map of the East Coast of North America, but I am biased: I'm Dutch and wouldn't mind to see New Netherlands.

4. New Cards. Sure, I would expect that an expansion will include more cards, but far more than additional cards I'm hoping that an expansion will bring new gameplay elements like raiding towns, unique ships, a Ghost Ship, a couple of new ship types, and a new gameplay element for merchant players.

5. Fleets. I'm not enthusiastic about the extra complexity it may bring yet.
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I have some additional ideas for the possible expansion.

Additional ideas
6. A new gameplay element for Merchant players.
Ideas like fort battles, Terrors of the Deep and the Cutthroat rules all please and benefit players who like to play as pirates. We should think of some interesting gameplay elements that benefit Merchant players. I hope the readers can help with this.
(Maybe a new buyable merchant ship type that allows for a new type of trade or other new feature, or a traveling merchant that sells 1 good of each type to players without any bounty. I'm just brainstorming here. Please post your ideas.)


7. More captain cards of certain types: I think that some specific captain types are too scarce in the standard game. An expansion could compliment this well.

- If more captain cards are added, I'd like more captains that are good at chasing rumors, with +-6 points devided over the stats Influence and Scouting, with Influence being at least at 3. For a merchant player, doing some missions and chasing rumors is a nice extra gameplay element. I least like captains with stats 2 2 3 2: they are neither efficient enough as pirates, nor as treasure hunters (chasing rumors).

- more female captain cards. Tough female captains appeal to female players (as tough male captains appeal to male players). We do want our wives (to keep) playing M&M with us, right?

- If more non-pirate captain cards are added, on these cards I'd clearly like to see a special ability that benefits merchants. I don't like captain cards who only end up being played as merchants because they are not pirates (because of their Scouting value of below 3) and not treasure hunters (because of their low Influence and Scouting values).


8. The smallest and/or most maneuverable ships should be able to have more chance to escape from large ships or, more extreme:, more chance to dodge hits because they move and turn so fast and are such a small target.
Additionally at the moment I think it should not be worth a Glory Point to a player owning a Galleon for the destruction of the NPC Pirate Sloop.
I'm thinking in the lines of: if the maneuverability is f.i. 4 points higher, then the lower maneuverable ship gets one less Seamanship die, or one skull die is considered as a miss (at least on an escape attempt).
While the NPC Pirate Sloop will not defeat the Galleon (or Man-o-War), it will be more difficult to destroy it and worth the Glory Point.


9. More ship upgrades.
More of high-demand ship upgrade tokens, in particular: Sails.
In a 4-player game you may not be able to buy them at all, which can hold you back as a pirate. (Hull and Cannons will also benefit all players.)

Investigate if it would not harm the gameplay if there would be a pool for the ship upgrade tokens, like for the in demand tokens, or a small pile of the same tokens in the same harbor, so that when an upgrade is bought another one is placed back.

A couple of new ship upgrade types would also be nice (I like upgrades), but it is a challenge to implement this: the current player boards have specially designed places for the tokens.


10. (actually as a help for Jeffrey's point 2.):
A NPC Ghost Ship (Flying Dutchman) plastic figurine would be great. A ghost ship that appears on the board during a storm and chases ships and then disappears after the storm ends or after x rounds. I'd like this as a nice extra flavor to the game. It should not influence the game to such an extent that players who rather avoid combat get the feeling that they can't just do their thing (trading and questing).



Discussions
Some players have posted that they want more Event cards that make NPC ships move. I might agree, but I can't judge this well enough yet.


Career bonus for captains. Maybe the captains themselves can gain one bonus during the game In particular I am thinking about a +1 to Scouting bonus the captains who have for example a 4 or 3 in Influence, but only a 1 or 2 in Scouting. This bonus could be earned via missions and / or rumors. I like to do rumors next to playing the pirate or merchant.

More Event cards that bring in the Pirate Sloop or a second Pirate Sloop on the board.


Thanks for reading. Please post your ideas.
 
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Darth Mallen
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Mark, You sure are merchant friendly...for a pirate!

Absolutely love your idea around Captain bonuses--being able to increase 1 stat by 1 through Mission or Rumor would be awesome. If you think about the time frame of an entire game--a small improvement in a stat (or even a couple stats) would be believable. You could even cap all stats at 4 and only allow 1 stat upgrade per captain to keep things from getting out of hand.

The traveling Merchant ship is a cool idea too--this would be a welcome addition to both merchants and pirates I would think? Thinking both would need to successfully scout to find?

More ship upgrades simply makes sense--this could be accomplished by having a port permanently offer an upgrade (and obviously including more chits)

and who doesn't want to see a ghost ship--very cool!

 
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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arrrh

As a house rule, we tend to play the 'flee' action as if you win the seamanship throw you escape, you out sailed the other captain & got away. They can still fire with any successes they gain and so still might sink you, but it's a lot easier escaping that way rather than hoping the other captain gets no successes

arrrh

I do like many of these ideas, especially the additional board, more ships, more captains, hell nearly everything really!

 
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I really like most ideas that I've read on the forum, but disbalance would not be good for either pirates and merchants. I wouldn't like to lose some of my merchant gamers because they have the feeling that they can't win after implementing the cool ideas.

A Merchants & Marauders expansion should have some cool new features for both pirates and merchant players, so that the expansion will appeal to them both.

The points that I listed under "Discussions" are ideas towards I am currently neutral. I need a couple more plays and arguments from other forum posters before I can say whether I think that they are nice ideas that will work out well for the game.
Captain bonus: yes just one stat per captain. If the captain dies, you'll also lose the bonus.

I think that the idea of a traveling merchant is o.k., but I am not entirely convinced yet.
I came up with the idea because it could be beneficial for merchant players who just got a poor goods draw in the port that they just visited: the player only has two goods of one type of good that is in demand in a nearby port. At sea the player could buy the third good from the traveling merchant. The traveling merchant(s) would only trade goods with merchant players who have no bounties, so no selling to pirate players. Why I don't like it yet is:
1 The merchant ship may simply be too far away from the merchant player's to make it worth while to visit him. It (or they) should be traveling in sea zones between much ports.
2 Pirate players may just be able to steal from the traveling merchant or sink the ship, unless it's considered as an armed merchant (or merchant fleet) that is too dangerous for pirates to engage.
3 Ports should remain te most interesting place to visit for merchant players.

"having a port permanently offer an upgrade". This may work. What do other readers think?
I suspect that there is a reason why ship upgrades are in limited supply. (Even though it may sound odd that the craftsmen in a port may not be able to produce more upgrades after they created one of them.)
I think it's okay if players race towards an upgrade and some players thave thes upgrades and other players those upgrades. However, as I stated before: some upgrades, especially Sails, are very important to get a hold off, else you will seriously feel this when you're raiding merchant ships or other ships. It can make the difference between gaining a Glory Point or not.
 
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Christian Marcussen
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Status is: Testing!

Much of what I read here is accounted for in one way or another (apart from the supernatural).

arrrh
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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marqzen wrote:
Status is: Testing!

Much of what I read here is accounted for in one way or another.

arrrh


Excellent, now officially I'm in a state of "I can't wait" wow
 
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Darth Mallen
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marqzen wrote:
Status is: Testing!

Much of what I read here is accounted for in one way or another.

arrrh


Awesome! Thanks for update (and for your active involvement on BGG!)
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Diz Hooper
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We need man-eating mermaids and other such beasties.
 
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Anthony
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marqzen wrote:
Status is: Testing!

Much of what I read here is accounted for in one way or another (apart from the supernatural).

arrrh



Publically saying its in testing...that's a good sign!

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Richard
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Since this seems a popular thread for expansion talk, I thought I'd re-post ideas and questions I wrote off-topic in another thread about possible expansion concepts. It has no thumbs so it's possible no one, including Christian, likes the ideas contained herein, but just in case...

--

Have you thought of adding new types of goods, like illegal cargo or cursed items? Illegal cargo could perhaps make you a #1 priority for Navy, perhaps even at a higher range, but only while you have the cargo on board. This would in effect make a merchant a temporary pirate in effect. But they would have a higher sale value.

Cursed items could be the same but with NPC Pirates instead of Navy or perhaps other random misfortune events while at sea (sea serpent attack, Davy Jones, etc). I just thought of using Cyclade's Krakken figure somehow!

Also, someone posted a custom captain that could use wood cargo to repair a ship. I'd love an expansion to do things like this that would give creative uses for items in the game; i.e., a secondary use for cargo other than gold. I also would enjoy giving the players the ability to trigger events like your War mission concept where upon finishing a mission a war is started.

I think along with more ship types and more customizations, giving the game world a more dynamic feel with more options that add to that mystical age of pirates.

Thanks for the game and all your participation on here to help others enjoy it even more!
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Christian Marcussen
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Hi Richard.

Fine ideas. Which is why they are covered to a large extent
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Richard
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Hah, that could be. I probably should have re-read everything. I posted that originally before seeing the Terrors of the Deep variants.

I haven't seen anything with regard to illegal cargo or cursed cargo, though.

Again, thanks for commenting

P.S. It's your game that just made me order a bunch of mini paints, brushes and tools. I've been meaning to get into mini painting but your game finally made me say, "I need to paint these!"
 
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Jerry Alan Sayers
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marqzen wrote:
Status is: Testing!

(apart from the supernatural).



I can't wait to see the expansion, and am glad to hear that supernatural elements will not be part of it--I enjoyed the Pirates of the Caribbean movies (well, the first one anyway), but I want an historical Pirate game. I make an exception for mermaids--they can be cool (although they could just be a Rumour).

Just a personal preference, though; I'm sure it will be great no matter what.

Forts and fleets are two things I'd really like to see, and new rumours, missions, events, and captains (and maybe new ship types, although I'm not sure what would be worthwhile and not superflous--perhaps new ship mods or some other type of addition to existing ships would be enough) seem like obvious additions.

Have fun testing, and good luck!
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This is great news! wow
 
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Ferenc Wostry
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*No* supernatural elements PLEASE!!
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Mike Adachi
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wostry wrote:
*No* supernatural elements PLEASE!!


On the opposite: curses, totems and voodoo and all things supernatural in the Caribbean sense, please! Just make it an optional aspect so those inclined can use it and other can skip it.
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I'd like to add my $0.2 in regards to the supernatural:

I can clearly understand how some people would hate adding supernatural elements to M&M, while others feel it is the thing that is missing the most. It seems to me that a separate expansion dedicated to the supernatural is a good solution. Especially if this expansion works in a manner similar to the Terrors of the Deep variant, in that it adds another element that seems to affect Merchants and Pirates equally. If you're interested, you buy it. If not, you skip it. Everyone wins!

On a personal note, I think this game is begging for some supernatural elements to be mixed in. It would be bad for them to become dominate, however. I would gladly buy a supernaturally themed expansion, especially if it's a "mini-expansion" that does some relatively simple things a la Terrors of the Deep.

Links for those interested in Terrors of the Deep:

Main Thread

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