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Subject: Recommend the mid-heavy euros with minimum AP. rss

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Sylvester Stachovicz
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May last even 120 mins or more and should be playable by 4 players.
Thank you
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Jonathan Tullsen
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The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet.
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Endeavor is a good one!
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'Bernard Wingrave'
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Not sure what you mean by "mid-heavy".

And I would say that AP is very dependent on the player.

But in terms of games that are at least medium-weight and have relatively short turns (i.e. do one quick thing and then it's someone else's turn, vs. do a whole bunch of things while everyone else has to wait), the following come to mind:
Puerto Rico
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery

Edit: changed turnsto things in "whole bunch of turns"
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...
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I agree with PR and AoEIII both excellent game

I would plug Navegador. This game is great, and the down time between players is low.

Another.. El Grande. It plays best with 5, but 4 player El Grande is very worthy.
 
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Markus A
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I'd say stay clear of Ora & Labora, every time I've played it so far the players have suffered AP. lol
I love the game though, one of the best I've played for a long time.
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Rob Doupe
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Some games are more prone to AP than others. Anything where players can use public information to project the game state several turns into the future is vulnerable to AP. Games with significant hidden information, and/or the introduction of random elements, are less vulnerable.

That being the case, I recommend:

Taj Mahal

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Jason Hinchliffe
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Hmmm, I'd say any mid-heavy euro has a high possibility of AP. If there wasn't, it wouldn't be "Mid-Heavy". Puerto Rico is probably the closest, but I would consider that a mid-weight game at best, and certainly not remotely on the heavy side. However, even it can lead to some decent deliberations.

If you want a game with depth, AP comes with the territory. There are a lot of options and decisions, and as a result, people will need to time to think about them.

That said, I'm not sure what you mean by "AP". For me, that is not a quality of a game, but of a player. Some people just have trouble making decisions. Some games simply take a while to figure out what you want to do, and/or have longer turns. That isn't really AP, it's just a complex game.

Here are a few things to consider:

1 - The more the game state changes, the more AP will be an issue. If the plan I had can be dashed by the player right before me, I'm going to need my turn to completely craft a new one. This isn't even AP so much as "hey I just got screwed, give me a minute".

2 - Consider the players in your group. If they are the type of people to calculate the potential outcomes of each situation three turns into the future, and heavier game is going to make them drag. Further, if the game allows you to do that, it's going to be a perfect storm. I've had people take 2 minute turns of DOMINION because they couldn't decide what card to buy. THAT is an AP player. He will be an issue in any game, and is almost always going to be the person taking the longest turns.

3 - Finally, if you're going to play heavier games, you should probably just stop worrying about AP altogether, because it's going to happen, to you and everyone else at different times. So use their AP time to your advantage by spending more time analyzing the game state. You may find it makes your turn even more valuable.
 
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Damien Seb. ●leoskyangel●
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I seconded Navegador. A turn only takes few seconds, and you can easily plan during someone else's turn. All the actions in the game lie around the rondel, and you usually see the three actions that lie ahead from your pawn.

The actions are there for you to see and plan. So I think that's why the downtime for a player is low.
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Jason Hinchliffe
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dtroy_de_rapcore wrote:
I seconded Navegador. A turn only takes few seconds, and you can easily plan during someone else's turn. All the actions in the game lie around the rondel, and you usually see the three actions that lie ahead from your pawn.

The actions are there for you to see and plan. So I think that's why the downtime for a player is low.


Navegador is a good one. I just don't know that I consider it "Medium-Heavy".
 
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EuroPeon
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Glen More is apparently out of print, but it sounds like what you want.

I'd call it a medium-weight game, but it's short and feels heavy.
 
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Paul Rice
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Inca Empire

I play with a group that has serious AP problems, but with Inca Empire we're still able to play games that last about 90 minutes. First game took a little over twice that amount of time though from learning the rules.
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Rob Doupe
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clockwerk76 wrote:


That said, I'm not sure what you mean by "AP". For me, that is not a quality of a game, but of a player. Some people just have trouble making decisions. Some games simply take a while to figure out what you want to do, and/or have longer turns. That isn't really AP, it's just a complex game.


To me, AP means the extent to which a game rewards taking the time to crunch all the numbers before you make a move. In some games, playing intuitively and quickly will be little handicap. In others, if a player takes 3 minutes per turn to consider the various outcomes of his actions before making a decision, he will probably beat a table of opponents who only take 1 minute per turn.
 
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Marc Lanctot
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As other users have mentioned, you need to tell us what you mean by "mid-heavy". I run a mixed-euro tournament; our heavy games are 2 hours, our light games are 1 hour. So I'm going to go ahead and assume mid-heavy means 90 minute games

For low AP you want low down-time on turns. I'm a sucker for worker placement games, which have this property, and by far Stone Age is my strongest recommendation. I know the profile says 60 minutes, but it's a lie.. unless maybe everyone has played at least a few times.

Next in line: Egizia. Also a worker placement but with a neat twist/restriction that you have to always head down the Nile in the same direction.

If mid-heavy meant 2 hours I'd recommend Caylus. Also worker placement.

Outside worker placement I really enjoy Notre Dame if you like drafting and Amun-Re if you like bidding.

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Rob Steward
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Genoa minimizes downtime by having everyone else negotiate your moves with you. Very engaging game... probably best with 5 players.
 
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TS S. Fulk
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We enjoy Dungeon Lords and are looking heavily into getting Dungeon Petz. AP could happen, but AP can happen in any game with planning.
 
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Jeff Forbes

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Caylus

Not only is Caylus more elegant than Agricola, it is also significantly less prone to AP. Medium weight. Very elegant. Probably best with 3 but it's playable with 4. 5 is too many, though. 3 plays in ~90 minutes once you know the game. Gets better with age. Multiple points where there is a lot of tension, and there's more interaction than average for a euro.

Vasco da Gama

Medium light by my standards. Offers some mildly agonizing decisions, but the order of action is more important than what the action is. There are only four options when placing your guy, so there's not a large space to get confused.

Goa - Midweight, perhaps slightly more AP prone than Caylus, but it's not terrible by any means. Revolves around an auction and resource management/development with a low level of uncertainty. Quite tense and replayable, and you can't get interaction more direct than auctions, outside of combat!

I will second Inca Empire, a neat network building game that lends itself towards relatively smooth play.

Hansa Teutonica has quite simple rules, and while there are some points where decisions need to be thought out, there are enough options and side-planning going on that one person is very unlikely to totally jam up the game.
 
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J
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Moved to Recommendations
 
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