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Subject: Explore. Anchient ships. When to place influence? rss

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Thomas Koba
Faroe Islands
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Reading through the rules for a game tonight.

So I explore a hex. There's an anchient ship. Another player enters same hex. Round is finished. And combat starts. I get killed. The other player kills the anchient ship.

Can he then place influence? At the end of the combat phase? Or can the hex only be occupied by an influence order at a later round?
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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He can place his influence disc the same time any player could: at the end of the combat phase when he has a ship in a hex that contains no enemy influence disc.
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Thomas Koba
Faroe Islands
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Ok. Thanx!
 
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Rasmus Crumb Sheik
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More accurately after combat if you have at least 1 ship in a hex with no population cubes you remove any enemy influence discs and may place one of your own discs.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Actually, if your ship is in a hex with no population cubes you must (ie not optional) remove that enemy's influence disc (returning it to that player's influence track). After that, whether you place one of your own discs there or not is up to you.

Personally, we play it so that when you destroy the last population cube, that's when you return the influence disc. Since the disc will be returning automatically anyway, it can be useful to have the disc on your player board for a short time before you'd be required to choose to claim a hex or not (if you lost one hex but gained another) instead of having to make the decision immediately (as all players would remove their opponent's discs at the same time, as the Combat Phase ends, and then choose to place a disc or not on those hexes).
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Siinji wrote:

So I explore a hex. There's an anchient ship. Another player enters same hex. Round is finished. And combat starts. I get killed. The other player kills the anchient ship.

Can he then place influence? At the end of the combat phase? Or can the hex only be occupied by an influence order at a later round?


Explore only lets you flip a tile and place influence in an area empty. If there are ancient ships there you will have to use a Move action to get there. If someone moves in after you, they attack you and then the survivor attacks the ancients. After combat if a player wins they can place their influence disk and if you have some colony ships you can settle some planets too.
 
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John McLintock
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taggedjc wrote:
Actually, if your ship is in a hex with no population cubes you must (ie not optional) remove that enemy's influence disc (returning it to that player's influence track). After that, whether you place one of your own discs there or not is up to you.

Personally, we play it so that when you destroy the last population cube, that's when you return the influence disc. Since the disc will be returning automatically anyway, it can be useful to have the disc on your player board for a short time before you'd be required to choose to claim a hex or not (if you lost one hex but gained another) instead of having to make the decision immediately (as all players would remove their opponent's discs at the same time, as the Combat Phase ends, and then choose to place a disc or not on those hexes).

Jeremy's reading of the rule is mostly right, as this paragraph from p.21 shows:
Quote:
Influencing Hexes If a hex has no population after all battles have been resolved and you have at least one Ship there, remove the previous controller’s Influence Disc (returning it to his Influence Track). After this, you may place your own Influence Disc there. Also, if your Ship is in a hex without an Influence Disc after the Combat Phase, you may place a disc there.

Note that the timing is after each battle- for removal; and at the end of the combat phase- for placement; so influence discs have to be removed before you move on to the next battle, but they are only placed after all battles have been fought. This timing issue is important for the reason Jeremy alluded to: if you're likely to lose and gain discs in the same combat phase, then it could be useful to see the state of your influence disc track before you decide where to place your new influence discs.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Actually, the timing of removing the discs is at the end of the combat phase, just as the placement of the discs.

Quote:
If a hex has no population after all battles have been resolved...


This contrasts with the wording previously used when talking about attacking enemy population, which clearly specifies "after all battles in a hex" to refer to the battles in that specific hex.


The way we play changes the rule to remove the disc after the battles in that hex (including the population removal, obviously), and place the discs at the end of combat, instead of doing both at the end of combat.

There's still a very minor "timing" issue (namely, if I want to see if you're going to actually claim a hex before I go to claim mine, and you want to know the same of myself, who goes first?) but those can easily be resolved in Player Turn order without any fuss.
 
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John McLintock
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taggedjc wrote:
Actually, the timing of removing the discs is at the end of the combat phase, just as the placement of the discs.

Quote:
If a hex has no population after all battles have been resolved...

This contrasts with the wording previously used when talking about attacking enemy population, which clearly specifies "after all battles in a hex" to refer to the battles in that specific hex.

I'm not so sure of that. Here is what I found on p.20:
Quote:
Attacking Population After all battles have been resolved, the remaining Ships may attack the population in the hex.

So the contrast on which you lay such store is a bit mysterious to me. And the terms 'battles' and 'combat phase' are two which seem to be used quite consistently in the rules to distinguish specific concepts, so I see no reason here to assume that 'battles' has been used where the designer really means 'combat phase'.
Quote:
There's still a very minor "timing" issue (namely, if I want to see if you're going to actually claim a hex before I go to claim mine, and you want to know the same of myself, who goes first?) but those can easily be resolved in Player Turn order without any fuss.

Maybe, but for me the most interesting thing came out of your own reflections above: the tactical value you might gain from seeing how many influence discs you have on your action track before deciding how many new discs you'll place at the end of the combat phase. I can see that easily making a big difference.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Quote:
After all battles have been resolved, the remaining Ships may attack the population in the hex.


This is the page after it describes how you could have multiple battles in one hex, so I think it's meaning to clarify this.

I do find it a bit odd that it does specify "Also, if your Ship is in a hex without an Influence Disc after the Combat Phase, you may place a disc there." as an "Also" , since this is actually the same time as when you would be placing the disc into the hex in the first place and under the same conditions...

I think you could just take out the "After this, you may place your own Influence Disc there" line, or simply read it to me "After this has been done, you will be able to place your own Influence Disc there through other means, such as the next sentence."

*shrugs*

This is one case where I think the rules are a little muddy, but is a fortunate area where it doesn't matter if the rules are muddy because things should only really happen in a particular order and there's no reason to really argue the intended meaning one way or the other, as I can't really think of any particular situation where it would be important
 
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Agent J
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I think it's just clarifying that combat is not necessary to place that influence disk. For example, I have an extra move action after I move 2 ships, and I move a ship to a space in my 'backfield' that I had taken off in a bankruptcy, but now I want that point for the end game. I can place that token at the end of the turn if my ship stays there, and I don't need to take an influence action to do it.
 
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taggedjc wrote:
Actually, the timing of removing the discs is at the end of the combat phase, just as the placement of the discs.

Quote:
If a hex has no population after all battles have been resolved...


This contrasts with the wording previously used when talking about attacking enemy population, which clearly specifies "after all battles in a hex" to refer to the battles in that specific hex.


What difference could it possibly make? Once the population is gone it becomes a certainty that the disc will be removed that turn, so you might as well do it immediately instead of later. I understand the quoted sentence as "If a hex has no population after all battles [in it] have been resolved..."
 
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