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Subject: A question about the influence action rss

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John McLintock
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A recent game saw my friend do this with the Influence action:
1. Remove a disc and all population cubes from a hex.
2. Replace a disc in the same system.
3. Use 3 colony ships to colonise.
4. Reset 2 colony ships and used them to colonise again (it was the Galactic Centre he was playing with).

Is this allowed? I questioned the play because of this wording (p.10):
Quote:
After moving the discs, you may also turn two Colony Ships face up.

I read this to mean that you can only reset your colony ships as a result of moving an influence disc. So my friend couldn't've reset his ships because he had none which were used when he moved his influence discs; he therefore couldn't've reset his colony ships after using them after placing his second disc; and he would therefore have had to use another Influence action to fully recolonise his system.

I'm aware of a weakness in my argument here: a player can always use the influence action just to reset colony ships without moving discs at all. Still I just wanted to know for sure, with the Influence action can you: move both your discs; then use 3 colony ships; then reset 2 and use them again immediately?
 
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Markus
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I would argue yes, because you are allowed to colonize at any point during your turn.
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Sampo Sikiö
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JMcL63 wrote:
Still I just wanted to know for sure, with the Influence action can you: move both your discs; then use 3 colony ships; then reset 2 and use them again immediately?


Yes.
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John McLintock
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DeePee wrote:
I would argue yes, because you are allowed to colonize at any point during your turn.

That's the reason why I think it would be allowed myself. What I am asking about here is the specific condition which might stop the colony ship reset: namely the idea that you can't move discs then colonise/reset/colonise because you didn't have any colony ships to reset when you moved your discs. In other words I'm reading the rule cited above to imply tight timing restrictions. I wasn't sure I'd got that across properly above; and your answer makes me feel even less confident Markus because you didn't comment directly on the specific isse.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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This is allowed. You can use colony ships between moving the influence discs and refreshing your colony ships, and you can even use the two refreshed colony ships immediately after refreshing them.

Personally, I like to wait until the last possible moment to ever colonize (either just before refreshing two colony ships, to use two of my colony ships, and then use my remaining colony ships in the Upkeep phase) just in case I get a better spread of possible colony spots by the end of the round. Although if an opponent might try to take a hex, I colonize before I pass so they can be on the board before combat (so if they get killed, I still get production from them, and they may act as a buffer against non-Neutron Bomb opponents).
 
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John McLintock
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Timing issue irrelevant; get on with things. Message received and understood. If only I could remember the other rules issue I wanted to ask about.
 
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Geoff Hall
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It was a perfectly legitimate move. You can even reset (and then immediately reuse) your 2 colony ships without moving any influence disks at all using the INF action.
 
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John McLintock
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DreadFuzzy wrote:
It was a perfectly legitimate move. You can even reset (and then immediately reuse) your 2 colony ships without moving any influence disks at all using the INF action.

Yep, I'd more or less persuaded myself already on the basis of that point.
 
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Brian Lenz
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I would have to say that the move was not legal by the rule statement on pg10.

After moving the disc(s), you may also turn two Colony Ships
face up.

I know it doesn’t say immediately after or directly after... so, is the rule statement from pg10 supposed to be interpreted loosely here?

My interpretation: He moved the disc(s) and colonized with 3 active colony ships. He would then flip them over into a used status. He could have had the opportunity to refresh two of his colony ships after moving the disc(s) as long as he had colony ships to refresh, but he did not as they were all still active ships after he had placed the disc(s). Therefore he would not be able to take advantage of refreshing his colony ships due to them being active after moving his disc(s).

With everyone saying yes here, I am under the impression that one can refresh your colony ships at any time during your turn after you have done a disc hex relocation during an influence action.

With this being said, I would say the rule should state that any time after your influence action you may refresh two colony ships. (as long as you had moved a disc or discs during this particular action.)

Your thoughts on this?
 
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Daniel Hammond
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LaffyTaffy wrote:
I would have to say that the move was not legal by the rule statement on pg10.

After moving the disc(s), you may also turn two Colony Ships
face up.

I know it doesn’t say immediately after or directly after... so, is the rule statement from pg10 supposed to be interpreted loosely here?

My interpretation: He moved the disc(s) and colonized with 3 active colony ships. He would then flip them over into a used status. He could have had the opportunity to refresh two of his colony ships after moving the disc(s) as long as he had colony ships to refresh, but he did not as they were all still active ships after he had placed the disc(s). Therefore he would not be able to take advantage of refreshing his colony ships due to them being active after moving his disc(s).

With everyone saying yes here, I am under the impression that one can refresh your colony ships at any time during your turn after you have done a disc hex relocation during an influence action.

With this being said, I would say the rule should state that any time after your influence action you may refresh two colony ships. (as long as you had moved a disc or discs during this particular action.)

Your thoughts on this?


kilgore wrote:
JMcL63 wrote:
Still I just wanted to know for sure, with the Influence action can you: move both your discs; then use 3 colony ships; then reset 2 and use them again immediately? :)


Yes.


This is pretty definitive.
 
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Brian Lenz
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That's a wrap!

After moving your colonist(s) during the influence action it will allow thumbsup thumbsup with your colony ships. whistle

Thank you Daniel.
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Robert F-C
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I think this is reasonably covered by the rulebook. It explicitly says that you can use Colony Ships after placing an Influence Disc and the very next sentence says that after making all Influence Disc moves that you can reset Colony Ships.

Quote:
After placing an Influence Disc, you may activate your
Colony Ships to place Population Cubes on the Population
Squares on the hex.

After moving the discs, you may also turn two Colony Ships
face up.






 
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Antti Autio
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I think the wording of the rulebook is not really the best possible to convey designer intent, since it gives possibilities for kinds of rules lawyering.

The intent and purpose of the INF action is that you may move discs and as an added bonus may refresh two Colony Ships.

It means that you may effectively use two of your Colony Ships twice. You don't need to have used them before you take the action.

The phrase "after moving the discs" is also a bit misleading, since you don't have to move any discs if you don't want to. You may take the action simply to use the colonisation boost.
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John McLintock
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aautio wrote:
I think the wording of the rulebook is not really the best possible to convey designer intent, since it gives possibilities for kinds of rules lawyering.

The intent and purpose of the INF action is that you may move discs and as an added bonus may refresh two Colony Ships.

It means that you may effectively use two of your Colony Ships twice. You don't need to have used them before you take the action.

The phrase "after moving the discs" is also a bit misleading, since you don't have to move any discs if you don't want to. You may take the action simply to use the colonisation boost.

Antti hit the nail on the head here. There are some situations in the game in which the exact sequence of events is important (initiative in combat is just the most obvious). The wording of the Influence action suggests that sequencing of the play of the action might be important. That's about it.
 
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Robert F-C
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aautio wrote:
I think the wording of the rulebook is not really the best possible to convey designer intent, since it gives possibilities for kinds of rules lawyering.

...

It means that you may effectively use two of your Colony Ships twice. You don't need to have used them before you take the action.

The phrase "after moving the discs" is also a bit misleading, since you don't have to move any discs if you don't want to. You may take the action simply to use the colonisation boost.


I wasn't meaning to say that the wording in the rulebook was well constructed (I agree with you that it isn't).

I was simply saying that in my opinion the original question was adequately covered by the combination of the sentence explicitly saying that you can use Colony Ships after placing each disc and the existing FAQ entry regarding the resetting of Colony Ships.

[What we are really arguing about is whether an additional FAQ entry is warranted.]
 
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James Read
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We had this exact smae arguement last night, so I would suggest the rulebook is not as clear as it ought to be and that this should be included in the official FAQ.

As already pointed out the phrase 'after moving discs' is misleading and it is not clear if the colonise action is an 'interupt' i.e. that you can take the influence action, part way through your action interupt yourself by placing population and then go back to your influnce actioni.

Anyway thanks to the mighty geek community my question is answered.



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Daniel Hammond
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Also the second printing of the rulebook clarified the action somewhat (Posted by the designers in PDF).
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John McLintock
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dlhammond wrote:
Also the second printing of the rulebook clarified the action somewhat (Posted by the designers in PDF).

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to download the new rules sooner rather than later.
 
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