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Subject: 2 Rule questions: Reforming France; substituting Luther rss

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Simone dalla Chiesa
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Hello everybody,

I've just played Turns 1 and 2 of my very first HIS game ever. I played the Protestant, all other player but England were experienced than me. The following three rule issues came up that put us players in disagreement.

(I possess and have studied the rules but I don't owe the game, so at this moment I cannot check the cards text)

1) I wanted to attempt Reforming England home spaces before Henry marries Anne (I was holding Hamburg) but I was told I couldn't flip them, on the basis of rule 21.3 England: Marriage Benefits "Reformation starts in England on the turn after the marriage to Anne".

I've now found out that I could, see threads one and two.

However, I personally don't understand exactly what the sentence "Reformation starts in England" means. Does it mean that all England home spaces are flipped to the Protestant side?

2) Similarly, I wanted to attempt Reformation of France home spaces (in my case, jumping from reformed Basel after completing the French NT) before Calvin turns out on T4. Again, I was told I couldn't, but is there any rule prohibiting that? I cannot find any.

3) The Papacy player initiated a Debate, played his Home card and therefore chose his attacker. He then picked up my uncommitted debaters, and randomly chose one (actually, he fairly made me randomly chose one). All this is correct. But at this very time I wanted to play my own Here I Stand Home card and put Luther in place of the randomly chosen Protestant debater. I was told I couldn't, because "you had to do that before" (before what, I wonder). Was I really wrong? I think the problem concerns the time frame to which the phrase "at this time" (rule 18.5, Exception bullet) refers to.

I apologise if this issues have already being discussed, I could find no reference to them in the Rule section of the Forum.

Thank you.
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Pepper Page
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I believe you can reform in England at anytime. However Cramner the English debater doesn't appear til after Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn. Luther cannot be subsituted in the French Zone. Card text reads that he can be substituted in the German Zone using your home card. So I don't think you can use him outside this area.
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Rick
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Professorelm wrote:

1) I wanted to attempt Reforming England home spaces before Henry marries Anne (I was holding Hamburg) but I was told I couldn't flip them, on the basis of rule 21.3 England: Marriage Benefits "Reformation starts in England on the turn after the marriage to Anne".

I've now found out that I could, see threads one and two.

However, I personally don't understand exactly what the sentence "Reformation starts in England" means. Does it mean that all England home spaces are flipped to the Protestant side?

It is my understanding that you cannot make Reformation attempts before the marriage, but flipping spaces due to debate wins or events is allowed at any time. Just ignore me...
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Ben Post
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The best definition of the phrase "The Reformation begins in France/England" might be something like "a powerful Reformer and several debaters appear in France/England, which makes Reformation Attempts easier". If your friends were right and no reformation attempts were possible in a language zone before the "Reformation begins" there, two strange results would follow.

First:
-It seems it would never be possible to target Italian or Spanish-speaking spaces for Reformation attempts, because there is no point at which the Italian or Spanish (or Dutch) Reformation can be said to "begin".
-Yet the fact that an Italian language zone exists implies that Italian spaces can always be targeted by the publish treatise action (assuming connectivity).
-Therefore either the Protestant can never target Italian, Spanish, or Dutch spaces, or he/she is for some reason held to a stricter standard on the French and English Reformation than the Italian Reformation.

Second:
-If your friends are right, it would seem that no Bible translation should be able to take place until the "Reformation Begins" in a language zone (if Bible translation is possible, finishing a New Testament is possible; if finishing a New Testament is possible, it should have its effects regardless of whether Cranmer or Calvin are on the board).
-Yet Tyndale appears on Turn 2 and has the special power of bonus CP to translation. So can he not use his power until Cranmer shows up? Is the English player forced to leave the New Testament incomplete until then? That seems silly, given that Tyndale's New Testament was published in 1526 (or, in game turns, on Turn 2!)

Strategically, it makes sense for the Protestant to wait for Calvin and Cranmer's arrival before committing lots of CP to the French and English Reformations. But rules-wise, there's no reason he/she can't begin early, as long as connectivity exists.

As for Luther, my understanding is that the whole point of the "Here I Stand" card (aside from its potential for necromancy) is to allow Luther to defend weak debaters. That's why the card (and the paragraph on 18.5 which your friends are getting rules-lawyery about) says that Luther "substitutes" for another debater--the (German) Protestant debater must have already entered the arena in order for Luther to swap out for him. Or in other words, we should read an implied "debaters are assigned" between the first and second sentences of that paragraph. (Otherwise, if we're following this paragraph as strictly as possible, no debate can happen because the paragraph never specifies that debaters are assigned after the Pope decides how to apply Leipzig Debate). If we wanted to get even more rules-lawyery, whenever Leipzig Debate is played the Pope is the attacker. Yet the sentence in question says that Luther may substitute for "another debater (attacking or defending)". So can Luther swap out for Eck, and then play pattycake with Carlstadt until the debate's over?

I'm a novice too (just finished my first face-to-face game on Saturday), but I think your more experienced friends are playing these rules quite wrong (and in a way that severely weakens the Protestants).
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Antero Kuusi
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Professorelm wrote:
Hello everybody,

I've just played Turns 1 and 2 of my very first HIS game ever. I played the Protestant, all other player but England were experienced than me. The following three rule issues came up that put us players in disagreement.

(I possess and have studied the rules but I don't owe the game, so at this moment I cannot check the cards text)

1) I wanted to attempt Reforming England home spaces before Henry marries Anne (I was holding Hamburg) but I was told I couldn't flip them, on the basis of rule 21.3 England: Marriage Benefits "Reformation starts in England on the turn after the marriage to Anne".

I've now found out that I could, see threads one and two.

However, I personally don't understand exactly what the sentence "Reformation starts in England" means. Does it mean that all England home spaces are flipped to the Protestant side?


The "Reformation starts in England" refers to the fact that in the next turn 3 event cards referring to English reformation are added to the deck and Cranmer, Coverdale, and Latimer enter. It is not related to any limitations (except indirectly as England may not Publish Treaties before Cranmer is on map -- but even that does not have any impact on Protestants).

So, you certainly were allowed to flip English spaces prior to that.

Quote:

2) Similarly, I wanted to attempt Reformation of France home spaces (in my case, jumping from reformed Basel after completing the French NT) before Calvin turns out on T4. Again, I was told I couldn't, but is there any rule prohibiting that? I cannot find any.


Nothing prevents that. You were certainly allowed to reform French spaces prior to Calvin.

Quote:

3) The Papacy player initiated a Debate, played his Home card and therefore chose his attacker. He then picked up my uncommitted debaters, and randomly chose one (actually, he fairly made me randomly chose one). All this is correct. But at this very time I wanted to play my own Here I Stand Home card and put Luther in place of the randomly chosen Protestant debater. I was told I couldn't, because "you had to do that before" (before what, I wonder). Was I really wrong? I think the problem concerns the time frame to which the phrase "at this time" (rule 18.5, Exception bullet) refers to.


Pope is wrong. And he is explicitly wrong. 18.5, in paragraph Exception to Steps 2 and 3: "Likewise, the Protestant player may play Here I Stand at this time to substitute Luther for another debater (attacking or defending)"

Note the wording "substitute". You can't substitute if you haven't picked the debater. Note that this is intentionally worded differently than Bullinger's ability, which must be used prior to selection: "The Protestant player may instead commit Bullinger to use his debater bonus at this point; if so, Bullinger is inserted as the second round debater (before the random determination is made)."
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Professorelm wrote:
However, I personally don't understand exactly what the sentence "Reformation starts in England" means. Does it mean that all England home spaces are flipped to the Protestant side?


Reformation starts in England on the turn after Henry marries Anne Boleyn. It doesn't mean anything for the Protestant player (well, apart from Cranmer entering and all that). It makes a difference for England: he cannot use the Publish Treatise action before Cranmer is on the map. (Rules p27, left hand column and p37, right hand column.)

Professorelm wrote:
2) Similarly, I wanted to attempt Reformation of France home spaces (in my case, jumping from reformed Basel after completing the French NT) before Calvin turns out on T4. Again, I was told I couldn't, but is there any rule prohibiting that? I cannot find any.


No, there isn't. You're free to convert spaces in France (indeed, anywhere) at any time provided they fulfil the criteria listed in the rules on p29, bottom of the left hand column.

Professorelm wrote:
3) The Papacy player initiated a Debate, played his Home card and therefore chose his attacker. He then picked up my uncommitted debaters, and randomly chose one (actually, he fairly made me randomly chose one). All this is correct. But at this very time I wanted to play my own Here I Stand Home card and put Luther in place of the randomly chosen Protestant debater. I was told I couldn't, because "you had to do that before" (before what, I wonder). Was I really wrong? I think the problem concerns the time frame to which the phrase "at this time" (rule 18.5, Exception bullet) refers to.


You were right (as long as the debate was in German).
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Simone dalla Chiesa
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Many thanks to everyone for the quick and informed answers!

murcielago wrote:
... strange results would follow.

First:
-It seems it would never be possible to target Italian or Spanish-speaking spaces for Reformation attempts, because there is no point at which the Italian or Spanish (or Dutch) Reformation can be said to "begin".

...

Second:
-If your friends are right, it would seem that no Bible translation should be able to take place until the "Reformation Begins" in a language zone (if Bible translation is possible, finishing a New Testament is possible; if finishing a New Testament is possible, it should have its effects regardless of whether Cranmer or Calvin are on the board).


Those are indeed the strategic implications that I (the first one) and all the group of players (the second one) drew from such an interpretation of the rules.

murcielago wrote:
Strategically, it makes sense for the Protestant to wait for Calvin and Cranmer's arrival before committing lots of CP to the French and English Reformations. But rules-wise, there's no reason he/she can't begin early, as long as connectivity exists


Yes, I did study the basic Protestant strategy before starting the game, and I was aware of that. But I had taken all Electorates and most of the German speaking zone, and wanted to open some new religious front to relieve some of the pressure the Papacy was making on me. I believe I finished T2 in a good situation, but I honestly admit I was disgustingly lucky with the die rolls.
 
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Professorelm wrote:

(I possess and have studied the rules but I don't owe the game, so at this moment I cannot check the cards text)



There is card manifest (list of cards) in the file area here http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/15940/hiscardmanifest-xls
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