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Subject: Number of treachery cards up for bid rss

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Lutz
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It is my understanding the number of cards up for bid is equal to the number of players that can bid in that round (not at hand limit).

What happens if that changes during the bidding. For example...

1. A player wins a bid and has 4 cars in hand when there "dot" comes up to be the first bidder. Is that card still bid for or is it discarded?

2. A player plays a card during the bidding (truth trance, cone of silence) and is now able to start a bidding round. Is a card auctioned starting with that player?

BOb
 
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Chris Schumann
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
pilotbob wrote:
1. A player wins a bid and has 4 cars in hand when there "dot" comes up to be the first bidder. Is that card still bid for or is it discarded?

That card is still sold at auction. Players who have full hands are not allowed to bid.

pilotbob wrote:
2. A player plays a card during the bidding (truth trance, cone of silence) and is no able to start a bidding round. Is a card auctioned starting with that player?

A player who cannot bid... cannot bid. The rest of the auction is not affected.
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Rob Rob
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
On a related note, I don't quite get the strategy for the bidding. If you can't see what kind of treachery card it is - is the actual point of bidding then how much you are willing to pay (within your hand limit) to deprive the other players of cards?
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
Robrob wrote:
On a related note, I don't quite get the strategy for the bidding. If you can't see what kind of treachery card it is - is the actual point of bidding then how much you are willing to pay (within your hand limit) to deprive the other players of cards?


Sort of. Then there's the fact that the Atreides can see what it is. Is he bidding it up because it's good, or is he trying to bluff you into overpaying for crap?
 
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
Sorry, had a typo in my question 2. He wasn't at the start, but plays a card and now he can bid. Is a card added to the poll of cards to bid to?

BOb
 
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Chris Schumann
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
Robrob wrote:
On a related note, I don't quite get the strategy for the bidding. If you can't see what kind of treachery card it is - is the actual point of bidding then how much you are willing to pay (within your hand limit) to deprive the other players of cards?

Most of the treachery cards are quite valuable. Only five are worthless in the basic game, 20 are only played in battle, and that leaves eight nice actions for their holders.

There's a balance for each player: Use my spice to buy treachery for battles, or use it to ship troops for those very same battles?

For the emperor: Lock other players out to fill my hand, or let the cards sell so I have spice?

Plans within plans.
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Chris Schumann
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
pilotbob wrote:
Sorry, had a type in my question 2. He wasn't at the start, but plays a card and now he can bid. Is a card added to the poll of cards to bid to?

I would not add a card to the bidding, myself. The cards are selected before bidding begins. I would allow him to bid after playing a card.
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Ty Hansen
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
At the start of the bidding phase, you determine how many cards are up for bid.
Example, 6-player game, Guild has 4 cards, all others have 3 cards. Storm approaches: Fremen, BG, Guild, Harkonnen, Atreides, Emperor.
5 cards are placed in a row up for bid. No new card would be added if the Guild subsequently plays something during bidding.

The 5 cards are now finite and will be bid, unless all players pass on the same card (then all the remaining cards up for bid are placed back on the deck).
Card 1 will be bid on first by the Fremen, "In subsequent bidding that round, the first player who can bid to the right of the player who opened the bid for the previous card begins the bidding for the next card."

This means if the first card is purchased by the BG player, Card 2 would then start with the Harkonnen (as neither the Guild nor BG are able to bid). If the BG play a Ghola after Card 2 has been bid, they would not start Card 3, even though they have missed their 'bidding first' chance.
It also means that if the Guild plays a Truthtrance after Card 1 is purchased by the BG, they would now only hold 3 cards and could bid first on Card 2.

Some may argue the rules stating, "A player cannot bid for treachery cards if he already holds 4 treachery cards." in Section VIII. A. means even if the Guild plays the TT, they cannot bid.
Groups I have played with have never interpreted the rule strictly to mean if you cannot bid from the start, you cannot bid the whole round, just that if your hand is 'full', you cannot bid.
Rather if you are clever with your strategy and limit the number of cards for bid by starting 'full', and then can clear a space during bidding - more power to you...

Dune is never easy when it comes to rules...
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Rob Rob
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Re: Number of cards up for bid..
Good explanation. It was counter intuitive bidding on cards you didn't know but your evaluation makes the thought process much clearer. From a game play POV, I would agree even if you can't bid at first because of hand size, once you go below four you should be allowed to bid.
 
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Brad Johnson
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You better listen to Ty. He's the current world champion, you know.
 
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Stephen Williams
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Personally, I've never felt that there was much "crap" in the deck to begin with. Everything has its uses; even worthless cards can used to effectively bluff your opponent if you know how to use them. (Especially if you use the Residual Poison card as it was presented in the magazine, where you can use a worthless card to bluff its play.)

As such, I don't find myself worrying about WHAT I'm bidding on, I just ask myself if the price is too high for an "unspecified bonus effect."

I also change my bidding strategies based on what I currently have in my hand - ie, if I don't have any combat cards, I want to buy stuff just to hopefully get some. If I have plenty of combat cards, I'm mostly just bidding for cake.
 
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Klaude Thomas
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Ty's explanation is meet.

As for bidding strategy. Roughly, this

--a reasonable value for a card is 4 spice (until Emperor allies break that with the exploitative loop)
--let Emperor fill out his hand to four cards if that will happen early in the round (as Emperor, avoid doing that)
--try to prevent Harkonnen buying cards for less than 4 (even 4 is a bargain when you draw a free one)
--Atreides and Harkonnen should avoid spending all their starting spice on cards in round 1, but each must aim to get at least one card.
--Fremen should always open with 3 when it is there first turn to bid in round 1, and always bid 3 if anyone else gives you a chance to (if nothing else it makes other players bid 4)
--Atreides should bid accordning to what is useful to him, or occasionally to block other players (e.g. block Harkonnen gaining a karama, or block Emperor getting the shield to stop your maula pistol); either should go to 6 if they need to, to get that one card
--Atreides should always spend a karama to buy a karama, if the chance arises
--Guild might as well spend all 5 spice they start with in round 1 to get a card
--B-G should generally bid cheap, they only need one weapon or one defence to be dangerous (preferably a weapon)
--don't open with 1, that is a dumb bid. Bid 2 or 3 FCS if you don't want it, to force others to spend their spice, or bid 4 or 5 if you want it - if someone is determined to take the card you want, make them pay for it

So imagine this round one Atr, Fre, BG, Emp, Guild, Harko

Atr starts with 1? Fre 2?, BG pass, Emp 3??, Guild 4??? Harko 5. So now Atr needs 6 if he wants it and Harko is fine taking that card for 5. It is nearly always poor play to just bid up by 1 spice. Frem should have gone 3, and Emp bribed Guild 1 to bid 5. Harkonnen cards are more dangerous than Guild cards. Or Emp and Guild pass, let Harko bid 4 and come back in at 5 if need be. A pass is often better than upping by 1. Upping to the number just below an over-priced value is also good.

Atr starts with 5. Emp will prolly jump in for 6, so now it will be easier to buy a card later on in the round. It may come back around at 5. Harko may jump in (but if they do must let a cheap card go to Atr later). Guild and BG are out cold and cannot bump the price.

Atr starts with 4. Not horrible if you don't want the card. Emp or Guild will go 5 and Harko is forced to go 6 if he wants it (leaving him with 4 spice).
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