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Subject: Familiars rss

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Dan Cain
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New preview up today for TS: ToR

http://www.alderac.com/thunderstone/2012/01/30/545/#more-545

Looks like an interesting new mechanic they can work with. Who hasn't wanted a Brownie familiar ever since they watched Willow back in the day?

LA

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Charles Ting
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I wonder if there are still gonna be solo banned cards in this new THunderstone(e.g. Dire Wolf)?
 
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Sids Creations
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So... If I have 9xp can I use the 6 xp & 3xp choices or the 0xp choice or can I use both the dungeon ones at the same time as I have enough xp?

I would suspect that you only get to choose 1?
 
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I forgot to add... Do you have to have the exact amount to use the ability. ie can I use the 3xp one if I have 5xp? Thanks
 
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Allan Clements
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I liked the idea until it said they get shuffled back into your deck. The turn you get back them back into your hand is going to be much worse. I like the idea of choosing between keeping your XP to gain your familiars bonus each round or to spend it on heroes, but with it leaving play when you use it, saving 6 XP would be wasteful given how weak it is.
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Dicky P
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Kamakaze wrote:
I liked the idea until it said they get shuffled back into your deck. The turn you get back them back into your hand is going to be much worse. I like the idea of choosing between keeping your XP to gain your familiars bonus each round or to spend it on heroes, but with it leaving play when you use it, saving 6 XP would be wasteful given how weak it is.


My reading is that you don't spend XP to use your familiar abilities....

Quote
"You don’t have to spend this XP to use your familiar’s abilities either."

......you just have that amount of XP available for the ability level you want to be used. So in a way using a familar is a bit of a bonus which can be accessed in a turn you decide.

Cycling the familiar back into the deck is a rather nice way to stop it becoming overpowered (especially as using it itself will not impact your XP - if my reading is correct). There is a downside in that in a turn a familar appears you may not want to/be able to use it, and so you hand card number is smaller. BUT this is balanced by having access to the familiar in a future turn.

This looks like it will work well. thumbsup AEG
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Allan Clements
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I know you don't spend the XP, I was referring to deciding between spending it to upgrade heroes or keeping it to trigger your familiar.

With the familiar shuffling back into deck after use, there really is no choice, you are not going to hold onto XP to trigger a relatively weak card once instead of upgrading heroes. I don't really seem being too powerful to remain in play they just up the tempo a little and reward early dungeon victories, soon enough everyone has one, and since you get one randomly they can influence what your deck focuses on, but hardly matters if they are shuffled back in and turn up occasionally.

Will have to see how it is when it is released.
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Dicky P
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Ah I now see where you were coming from. I suppose a small "compensating" factor is the assertion that XP becomes more available in TS:A, and so you might have more "spare" XP than you might have had in the past with the core game.

Kamakaze wrote:

Will have to see how it is when it is released.


Definitely. Hopefully these will create some interesting decisions (timing or otherwise). For example, if there was a familiar XP+3 ability which gave you the opportunity to defeat a monster with say XP+3/VP+2 (which you couldn't defeat without the familiar), or alternatively you could go to the village and do a 3XP hero level up - which would you do?

 
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Mark Wootton
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charlesting wrote:
I wonder if there are still gonna be solo banned cards in this new Thunderstone(e.g. Dire Wolf)?


OK, so I am game. Dire Wolf - why banned?

Mark
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Mark Wootton
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Rushcutter wrote:
So... If I have 9xp can I use the 6 xp & 3xp choices or the 0xp choice or can I use both the dungeon ones at the same time as I have enough xp?

I would suspect that you only get to choose 1?


Nope. The XP totals are a "threshold". You can use any ability on a Familiar, if you have the threshold of XPs, so if you have 6 XPs you could use both the 3 and 6 XP abilities in the Dungeon, or the 0 if you were in the Village. Then at the end of the turn the Familiar is discarded - if you used its ability. There is one Familiar that works differently, but only by its own card text, and only subtly differently.

And in answer to your next question, the XP number is only a threshold, not an exact number (i.e. that number or greater).

Hope that clarifies.

Mark


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Mark Wootton
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Boom04 wrote:
Ah I now see where you were coming from. I suppose a small "compensating" factor is the assertion that XP becomes more available in TS:A, and so you might have more "spare" XP than you might have had in the past with the core game.

Kamakaze wrote:

Will have to see how it is when it is released.


Definitely. Hopefully these will create some interesting decisions (timing or otherwise). For example, if there was a familiar XP+3 ability which gave you the opportunity to defeat a monster with say XP+3/VP+2 (which you couldn't defeat without the familiar), or alternatively you could go to the village and do a 3XP hero level up - which would you do?



Yes, Familiars are all about adding strategic choices to your game. Generally, they have one or two key interactions per game and sometimes a few less key interactions. They are not designed to be game-winning on their own, more to be an additional tool that can save you in a tight spot. That seems to be the sweet balance point for them.

Mark

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Eric Foldenauer
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Har1equin wrote:
charlesting wrote:
I wonder if there are still gonna be solo banned cards in this new Thunderstone(e.g. Dire Wolf)?


OK, so I am game. Dire Wolf - why banned?

Mark
The solo game doesn't allow cycling of the dungeon deck, so cards with that ability cannot be used in a solo game (or at least those abilities must be ignored). I believe that is what he is refering to. As an example, the elf mage in the base game is not supposed to be used in solo play.
 
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Mark Wootton
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fograsher wrote:
Har1equin wrote:
charlesting wrote:
I wonder if there are still gonna be solo banned cards in this new Thunderstone(e.g. Dire Wolf)?


OK, so I am game. Dire Wolf - why banned?

Mark
The solo game doesn't allow cycling of the dungeon deck, so cards with that ability cannot be used in a solo game (or at least those abilities must be ignored). I believe that is what he is refering to. As an example, the elf mage in the base game is not supposed to be used in solo play.


Ah, OK.

I guess I would consider that more of a variant rule, rather than a card being banned - which has another connotation for me - implying s a broad description of a card's status.

Banning suggests a blanket restriction to me.

Mark

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Eric Foldenauer
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Har1equin wrote:
fograsher wrote:
Har1equin wrote:
charlesting wrote:
I wonder if there are still gonna be solo banned cards in this new Thunderstone(e.g. Dire Wolf)?


OK, so I am game. Dire Wolf - why banned?

Mark
The solo game doesn't allow cycling of the dungeon deck, so cards with that ability cannot be used in a solo game (or at least those abilities must be ignored). I believe that is what he is refering to. As an example, the elf mage in the base game is not supposed to be used in solo play.


Ah, OK.

I guess I would consider that more of a variant rule, rather than a card being banned - which has another connotation for me - implying s a broad description of a card's status.

Banning suggests a blanket restriction to me.

Mark



It is a blanket restriction according to the rules:
Wrath of the Elements Rulebook wrote:
Note: In all versions of solo play, all cards that move Monsters in the Dungeon Ranks, such as Banish, Elf Sorcerer, and Magi Staff are not allowed! Do not use these cards in a solo game.
 
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Mark Wootton
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Let's wait and see what the rules say about it!

Anyway I had misread his post to mean something slightly different. I don't think anyone is suggesting that cards should not be released that manipulate the Hall.

And when he said solo banned cards I read that as "solo cards" not "cards for solo game play".

Either way I would use the term restricted :-)

Mark
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Dave D
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I like that these can stay available between draws, to slightly even out each turn, but I still hope that Advance has something akin to constructs in Ascension, that are generally permanent, to even out the ups and downs of gold and/or attack etc.
 
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Jeff Jensen
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I really like the addition of the Familiars. I think its OK that they go into the discard pile after use, but I think I would rather have them stay out all the time. A couple thoughts how this might work (could be a house rule or included as variants!)

- After use, the Familiar is exhausted and turned sideways. If a player takes a Rest Action, the Familiar can be readied for use again along with the normal Rest Action of destroying a card in hand. (probably my favorite way to implement them)

-Familiars stay on the table, but the XP is spent to balance that. Might make it a little too powerful for the village effect though. Might have to add a 1 XP cost to use a village effect. (I don't like this one, but someone might)

-After use, a Familiar is reshuffled into the familiar deck. Its a one time use effect. On a future turn when a player defeats a monster, a new familiar may be drawn.
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Dicky P
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I too like the familiar mechanism. This is a great way to get "one off" effects/cards into the game play, and has great DIY potential.

If I understand the mechanism however, and from what we have seen, it looks like these are only positive abilities. It might be good to see some sort of negative effects as well, but this would probably require that once a familiar is played you have to accept that all the abilities are activated based on your XP pool level. It probably also means some balancing of the higher level XP abilities and more than three ability levels we have seen so far..

Sorry I am going off on one. A variant and we haven't even got the game itself....
 
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Nathan M
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Boom04 wrote:
I too like the familiar mechanism. This is a great way to get "one off" effects/cards into the game play, and has great DIY potential.

If I understand the mechanism however, and from what we have seen, it looks like these are only positive abilities. It might be good to see some sort of negative effects as well, but this would probably require that once a familiar is played you have to accept that all the abilities are activated based on your XP pool level. It probably also means some balancing of the higher level XP abilities and more than three ability levels we have seen so far..

Sorry I am going off on one. A variant and we haven't even got the game itself....


That might be where the curse stack comes in... Perhaps negative effects that are muted if you have enough XP in your pool? Just speculation of course...
 
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Dicky P
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lerris wrote:
That might be where the curse stack comes in... Perhaps negative effects that are muted if you have enough XP in your pool? Just speculation of course...


Could be... Good thinking thumbsup
 
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K. David Ladage
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Speaking of curses / diseases... I am hoping that what-ever-they-are, they are varied (much akin to the special disease deck), and tougher to get rid of.

"Resting" to sure "Leprosy" seems... trivial. Thus, an XP component would be an excellent addition.
 
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Daniel Heidenreich

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Kamakaze wrote:
I liked the idea until it said they get shuffled back into your deck. The turn you get back them back into your hand is going to be much worse. I like the idea of choosing between keeping your XP to gain your familiars bonus each round or to spend it on heroes, but with it leaving play when you use it, saving 6 XP would be wasteful given how weak it is.


hmmmm...I was thinking that maybe they implement the rule that once you draw the familiar card from your deck you can imediatly re-place him and draw another card.
 
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John Cosgrove
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Har1equin wrote:
Rushcutter wrote:
So... If I have 9xp can I use the 6 xp & 3xp choices or the 0xp choice or can I use both the dungeon ones at the same time as I have enough xp?

I would suspect that you only get to choose 1?


Nope. The XP totals are a "threshold". You can use any ability on a Familiar, if you have the threshold of XPs, so if you have 6 XPs you could use both the 3 and 6 XP abilities in the Dungeon, or the 0 if you were in the Village. Then at the end of the turn the Familiar is discarded - if you used its ability. There is one Familiar that works differently, but only by its own card text, and only subtly differently.

And in answer to your next question, the XP number is only a threshold, not an exact number (i.e. that number or greater).

Hope that clarifies.

Mark




Wow. Totally smashes the card up a few notches. I was worried about the real net gain given the dead hand it gets dealt back out in, but if you can charge them up like this, they are a real edge at the right time.
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Erik Rodriguez
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Omnisiah wrote:
Har1equin wrote:
Rushcutter wrote:
So... If I have 9xp can I use the 6 xp & 3xp choices or the 0xp choice or can I use both the dungeon ones at the same time as I have enough xp?

I would suspect that you only get to choose 1?


Nope. The XP totals are a "threshold". You can use any ability on a Familiar, if you have the threshold of XPs, so if you have 6 XPs you could use both the 3 and 6 XP abilities in the Dungeon, or the 0 if you were in the Village. Then at the end of the turn the Familiar is discarded - if you used its ability. There is one Familiar that works differently, but only by its own card text, and only subtly differently.

And in answer to your next question, the XP number is only a threshold, not an exact number (i.e. that number or greater).

Hope that clarifies.

Mark




Wow. Totally smashes the card up a few notches. I was worried about the real net gain given the dead hand it gets dealt back out in, but if you can charge them up like this, they are a real edge at the right time.


This made me feel a little better too, however, based on the familiars revealed, I'm still worried that the familiar's aren't powerful enough and will primarily just clog up your deck.

If I play the game and this does end up being the case then no worries - I'll just play this game with the variant that familiars always stay out on the table.
 
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Dicky P
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foxtrot2620 wrote:

If I play the game and this does end up being the case then no worries - I'll just play this game with the variant that familiars always stay out on the table.


and you could look at taking a hit to your XP when the familiar is used to avoid them being then "overpowered" as nor longer cycling through your deck?
 
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