Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Dune» Forums » Variants

Subject: Bidding Variant rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
J Bernardo
Taiwan
Taipei
flag msg tools
badge
Wargame? Eurogame? Ameritrash? Asia!! Check out Asian board game reviews at CardboardEast.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Has anyone tried open bidding variants?

I was thinking about letting everyone see what cards will be up for auction at the beginning of the bidding phase, then turn all the cards face down, shuffle, and begin the auction. The Atreidis would not be allowed to sell information about which card is currently up for bid.

Thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't like it. The bidding isn't the reason the cards are secret. The uncertainty that it introduces to combat is the benefit of the secrecy. Only the Atreides player can know who has what treachery cards available to play in a fight, so you'd take a big, big benefit away from them.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah Lee
United States
Milan
MI
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, I'm very happy with the way the cards are auctioned, but I am interested in your reasons behind trying to change it up.

Why alter the way bidding happens? What's not working for you in the original rules?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Bernardo
Taiwan
Taipei
flag msg tools
badge
Wargame? Eurogame? Ameritrash? Asia!! Check out Asian board game reviews at CardboardEast.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
Personally, I'm very happy with the way the cards are auctioned, but I am interested in your reasons behind trying to change it up.

Why alter the way bidding happens? What's not working for you in the original rules?


Everything works fine for me. My group houserules that the Atreidis House cannot sell the identity of the Treachery Cards during the auction/bidding phase. Afterwards he can, of course, but not during the bidding phase. This was done to help speed up the game as most time is lost during the bidding phase. We also forbid phones. We place all our phones in a shoe box to eliminate texting.

The player who often plays as Atreidis complained and suggested this alternative. I was curious to see what others thought.

I like the bidding; however, no one seems to understand that since it's mostly blind (as in you don't know what you're getting) why bid high and help the Emperor? Why feed Atreidis money to look at the card? You should be starving the big houses from spice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Williams
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
evilpanda wrote:
Why feed Atreidis money to look at the card? You should be starving the big houses from spice.


Well I'm definitely of the opinion that Atreides can't show you the cards, ever. He can tell you what it is, verbally (and he can also lie about what it is if he wants), but only Atreides can physically look at the card.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Stewi wrote:
evilpanda wrote:
Why feed Atreidis money to look at the card? You should be starving the big houses from spice.


Well I'm definitely of the opinion that Atreides can't show you the cards, ever. He can tell you what it is, verbally (and he can also lie about what it is if he wants), but only Atreides can physically look at the card.


Hmmm. The rules state that any deals made must stated aloud and honored so I'm pretty sure lying about the card would be forbidden under the bribery rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Bernardo
Taiwan
Taipei
flag msg tools
badge
Wargame? Eurogame? Ameritrash? Asia!! Check out Asian board game reviews at CardboardEast.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:
Stewi wrote:
evilpanda wrote:
Why feed Atreidis money to look at the card? You should be starving the big houses from spice.


Well I'm definitely of the opinion that Atreides can't show you the cards, ever. He can tell you what it is, verbally (and he can also lie about what it is if he wants), but only Atreides can physically look at the card.


Hmmm. The rules state that any deals made must stated aloud and honored so I'm pretty sure lying about the card would be forbidden under the bribery rules.


I believe the rules state that any deals made aloud must be honored; however, any deals not made aloud, away from the table, do NOT have to be honored. Everyone in our group raises an eyebrow when someone asks to take a smoke, snack, beer, or bathroom break. This is also why we've abolished electronic devices during gameplay. (tablets, phones, etc.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
evilpanda wrote:
I believe the rules state that any deals made aloud must be honored; however, any deals not made aloud, away from the table, do NOT have to be honored. Everyone in our group raises an eyebrow when someone asks to take a smoke, snack, beer, or bathroom break. This is also why we've abolished electronic devices during gameplay. (tablets, phones, etc.)


What the rules say is "Players can make any kind of verbal deals or bribes between one another. Once made, these deals and bribes must be stated aloud and must be honored."

I've always read that to mean that if you make a deal, it must be public and must be honored regardless of how the players arrived at the deal. So if the Atreides say "I'll tell you what that card is if you don't attack me at Arrakeen," and the other player agrees to that, there are no other options but to announce the deal and live up to it. That struck me as reflecting the flavor of the novels nicely, since everyone knew who was working with who, it was just a question of where the deal would be used to benefit one more than the other.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Bernardo
Taiwan
Taipei
flag msg tools
badge
Wargame? Eurogame? Ameritrash? Asia!! Check out Asian board game reviews at CardboardEast.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I like your version more, I swear to God it stated what I wrote; however, you're probably right.

I guess it all depends on which rule set you read. How many rule sets are there now for this game anyway??? Almost as many as there are Age of Steam expansions???
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm pulling these from a PDF of the AH rulebook I have from somewhere (don't ask me where - I honestly don't remember). I don't believe my Descartes edition is different, though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Williams
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
perfalbion wrote:

What the rules say is "Players can make any kind of verbal deals or bribes between one another. Once made, these deals and bribes must be stated aloud and must be honored."


Hmm, interesting. That's definitely not how I'm used to playing, though I will concede that this is what the original AH rules state.

I think I definitely prefer a game where lying is at least an option, which is interesting, since I'm generally very straight-laced with regards to my own deals when playing.

I don't agree with the idea that everyone knew who was working with whom in the novels. In fact, the constant suspicion and second-guessing of other people's motives was a big plot point as I recall. Heck, the Harkonnen didn't even know that House Atreides was still an active opponent until Paul and Jessica resurfaced with the Fremen at the end (IIRC.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm thinking more of the relations between the Great Houses and the power players within the Empire. The Atreides knew that their move to Arrakis was a trap set for them by the Harkonnen and Emperor, but couldn't pass up the chance to beat them at their own game. The Guild and Bene Geserit weaved their own plans with all comers to meet their own ends, etc. The players were known, the specific reasons or expectations for the play were not.

And while I'm all for deception in games that involve diplomacy, I think a game like Dune would suffer for it. While it's a longish game, it's not long enough that there's much time to recover from a bribe that doesn't get paid off. I suppose making it a house rule that any deal involving spice must be honored could fix a good portion of that, but really don't see it hurting the game at all to make it impossible to lie as a part of a deal.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evgeny Reznikov
Israel
Haifa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
To return to the previous topic, nothing prevents you from making a very public deal saying "I will secretly tell you the title of the next card up for bud for 2 spice".

The fact that all deals are binding and public is interesting. Never played that way myself, but it will be interesting to try.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Johnson
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For what it's worth, everyone I've ever played with has allowed both public deals at the table (which are binding), as well as private deals away from the table (which are not binding), and that's how we play it at the WBC tournament. Most of the Dune players I know like the diplomacy and negotiation and want to permit as much of it as they can. I think most of the tournament players would be very upset if I tried to disallow private deals. It's difficult to make nefarious plans if you require *everything* to be open and binding. Admittedly, it can add a lot of time to the game if everyone is stepping away from the table to discuss deals and strategies, but I figure as long as everyone is having fun, it's fine.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Denam
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mb
In the games I've played there's a difference between a binding deal and a statement. A binding deal must be announced at the table and honored. A statement can be made at any time and may or may not be true.

So as Atreides, I can say whatever I like in private about the cards. If I'm just throwing out a statement I can lie as well. But if it is announced at the table that the Emperor is purchasing knowledge of the next treachery card for 3 spice then I have to tell him the truth. My group would also let me pass the card to the Emperor instead of making us walk from the table because it would save time.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.