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Empires: Builder Expansion» Forums » General

Subject: This Game Is Unplayable Without BGG rss

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Chris Linneman
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While this is sort of a moot point, since anyone who is reading this clearly reads BGG, I wanted to express my dissatisfaction with a company that feels it's okay to print a game (well, expansion...) that is unplayable without the support of sites like BGG.

The fact that they did not even print in the rules to the BUILDER expansion what the primary way of acquiring a BUILDER is...speaks to the lack of regard this company has for QA.

I would have proofread a rulebook the size of this one (4 pages, including component listing and credits) for the price of a free copy of the game. I am sure Eagle could find others who would do the same. So why the disregard for QA? It's not like this game was rushed. I believe it was 3 or 4 years in the making.

The lack of the "how to get Builders" rules is the most egregious of errors, but it is certainly not the only one. The Rules forum is littered with the most basic of rules queries, such as, "does England get $1 from each other player once, or once per turn?" and the designer/publisher are largely silent. If you are going to rely on BGG for your QA, at least pop into the forums once in a while and answer the abundance of questions your laughable rulebook has engendered.

I want to see a commitment to a completely revised rulebook, including the following:

Rules on how to acquire Builders
Better rules for initial player order (not "youngest" but an auction, or maybe reverse player order, i.e., if you are last in turn order you get to choose your nation first)
Better balanced National Advantage tiles (as it is now, some are strictly worse than others, some are plagued by rules ambiguities, one is terrible at low player counts and overpowered at high ones)

This game is not cheap. I think MSRP is around $40. For an expansion. Come on, you owe it to us.

Edit: Now that I have played the game, I have to add to the list:

Clearer rules for all the buildings, in particular, which ones are one-use-only and which ones are once-per-turn.
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Hugh G. Rection
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Elder Sign deja vu.

 
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sean brown

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Sorry your Unhappy Chris.

I disagree though that it is unplayable without the geek. I do agree there have been alot of questions, and I am making a list of them (see my other thread if you have any to add) and I will get these to Glenn and make an official FAQ for the rules to help out.

Sean
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Geo
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Why pay for professional proofreaders and playtesters if the gamers here can do that for free? And pay $40 on top of that to buy the expansion at it's current state?

I am sorry but Eagle Games is quickly moving into my: "avoid their games" list.


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Chris Linneman
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GeoMan wrote:
Why pay for professional proofreaders and playtesters if the gamers here can do that for free? And pay $40 on top of that to buy the expansion at it's current state?

I am sorry but Eagle Games is quickly moving into my: "avoid their games" list.




Because eventually you will lose your customer base when your name becomes associated with poor quality editing and production.
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brian
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QBert80 wrote:
GeoMan wrote:
Why pay for professional proofreaders and playtesters if the gamers here can do that for free? And pay $40 on top of that to buy the expansion at it's current state?

I am sorry but Eagle Games is quickly moving into my: "avoid their games" list.




Because eventually you will lose your customer base when your name becomes associated with poor quality editing and production.

I think he was making the same point....
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Bill Robot
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I love how when you complain about a FFG such as Elder Sign the thread fills with loco apologists. Whereas with Age of Discovery everyone just agrees the Glenn dropped the ball.
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Brian Jones
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onekccs wrote:
Sorry your Unhappy Chris.

I disagree though that it is unplayable without the geek. I do agree there have been alot of questions, and I am making a list of them (see my other thread if you have any to add) and I will get these to Glenn and make an official FAQ for the rules to help out.

Sean


I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP on this one. There is nothing in the published rules of the expansion about how to acquire Builders - that is the definition of unplayable.

Sean, I'm glad you are here and working on a solution for this, but I'm in agreement that a FAQ document is just not enough. A fully revised rules document is in order, hopefully in PDF form with full color art and another version that is printer friendly. I have also made this request in the other thread you mention. So how about it Sean, is that a possibility?
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...
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I'll admit... That is a major oversight that seems incomprehensible. The bloody expansion is titled Builder Expansion... and you don't include the basics.

I love AoEIII and want to buy this expansion but this definitely puts a damper on the "want".

It seems lately there as been a rash of poorly constructed rule books/misprints in games lately. A few I can think of...

Panic Station
Elder Sign
Mansions of Madness: Forbidden Alchemy

yuk

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CM Randall wrote:
It seems lately there as been a rash of poorly constructed rule books/misprints in games lately.


And the fault is on us, who rush to buy anything that comes out without checking it first. This trend will continue unless we learn to be more patient and evaluate our buys better.
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Chris Linneman
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GeoMan wrote:
And the fault is on us, who rush to buy anything that comes out without checking it first. This trend will continue unless we learn to be more patient and evaluate our buys better.


I agree. I am becoming more judicious about buying games sight unseen. For example, I am waiting to see if the printing issues are fixed in the second edition of Ora et Labora before buying, even though I have played and really liked the game. Part of this is due to its high cost. The AoE3 expansion was cheaper, which convinced me to take the risk. I'm still hopeful Eagle Games provides us with a revised rulebook. At least they did the building tiles right, reprinting all of them to avoid mismatch blunders (I'm looking at you, Ghost Stories Black Secret expansion...)
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Mika R.
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11th Command: Thou shalt never buyeth the First Edition of anything.
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Charlie Theel
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eikka wrote:
11th Command: Thou shalt never buyeth the First Edition of anything.


Except many games released in the past couple of years have had excellent first editions.

Eclipse
Mage Knight
Earth Reborn
Merchants and Marauders
Gears of War
JAB: Realtime Boxing

These are just a few that come to mind.
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brian
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charlest wrote:
eikka wrote:
11th Command: Thou shalt never buyeth the First Edition of anything.


Except many games released in the past couple of years have had excellent first editions.

Mage Knight

Really? I haven't been that close to it but I have heard that the 2nd edition is correcting a lot of errors on this one. I was told by a friend to wait on a 2nd edition of this too if I ever got it.
 
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Charlie Theel
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
charlest wrote:
eikka wrote:
11th Command: Thou shalt never buyeth the First Edition of anything.


Except many games released in the past couple of years have had excellent first editions.

Mage Knight

Really? I haven't been that close to it but I have heard that the 2nd edition is correcting a lot of errors on this one. I was told by a friend to wait on a 2nd edition of this too if I ever got it.


Yeah that may be a bad example. I hear the rulebook is difficult to understand to it being spread across multiple books (some of the rules are in the Tutorial Scenario for example) but I believe all the rules are there, it's just a difficult ruleset to read.

The Builder Expansion has the main rule of the expansion omitted.
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Chris Linneman
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Really? I haven't been that close to it but I have heard that the 2nd edition is correcting a lot of errors on this one. I was told by a friend to wait on a 2nd edition of this too if I ever got it.


Off topic, but in fact there are only a couple of minor errors on the cards, which are corrected in the rulebooks themselves.

Any other reports of "errors" are likely because the person was unable to find the rule in question, since the rulebooks don't have indices and aren't organized in the most intuitive fashion. But they are all there.
 
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Lee Fisher
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
charlest wrote:
eikka wrote:
11th Command: Thou shalt never buyeth the First Edition of anything.


Except many games released in the past couple of years have had excellent first editions.

Mage Knight

Really? I haven't been that close to it but I have heard that the 2nd edition is correcting a lot of errors on this one. I was told by a friend to wait on a 2nd edition of this too if I ever got it.


There are very few errors and there will be very few changes.
 
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sean brown

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Brian,

I absolutely will post a pdf of the FAQ (I have it going in another thread) to address the issues. I can make the edit to the rulebook as well.

As soon as I get the answers back from Glenn, I will do the FAQ, and then I can work on a rulebook with the builder paragraph added in PDF.

Sean
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Abraham Drucker
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I read the rulebook last night, and was planning on coming here to complain about the lack of proof-reading in the rulebook which includes weird spacing problems, awkward sentence construction and some blatant sentence fragments.

I hadn't even realized that it missed entirely the rule re: getting builders because I had read a summary of the rules on BGG.

If I worked for Eagle/Fred I would be embarrassed that this rulebook was published with their logo on it. Someone should have at least glanced at the rulebook before sending it to the printers. Proof-reading it once out-loud would have been helpful, and at the very least turning on MS word's grammar check and immediately.

That being said, it looks hella fun to play.
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Steven Tan
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It really doesn't help that most of the capital building clarifications in the rulebook are just what the actual capital building says word for word except for a word or two in parentheses. I would have expected this level of shoddiness from FFG, but not here. That said, unlike with FFG, this game is pretty great even with the brokenness, but if I didn't frequent BGG I think I'd be furious. Trying to play this with my girlfriend this weekend was pretty frustrating as she as no internet, and I couldn't look any of this up until now.
 
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Richard Rutten
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I just purchased this one in Essen. And allthough I look forward to playing it. The rulebook for this is expansion is truly laugable. Everyone at Eagle Games should be deeply ashamed that they are still selling this as it is after the issues have been known for 7 months. I've never seen such blatant contempt for customers as in this case.

Shame on you Eagle Games!
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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Blind Reality wrote:
I just purchased this one in Essen. And allthough I look forward to playing it. The rulebook for this is expansion is truly laugable. Everyone at Eagle Games should be deeply ashamed that they are still selling this as it is after the issues have been known for 7 months. I've never seen such blatant contempt for customers as in this case.

Shame on you Eagle Games!


It was reason enough for me not to buy it...
 
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