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Subject: How could interceptor swarm defeat a missile fleet rss

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Eric Pietrocupo
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While speaking on another thread about a counter defense for missiles (Anti-missile Rocket variant), somebody said:

Quote:
The rock-paper-scissors here is that an interceptor swarm beats highly upgraded dreads.


I was wondering if if could actually be possible to counter a missile fleet by making a flood attack of interceptor. The idea is that I am working on a variant that will use TI movement style instead of eclipse which will make interceptor swarm very easy to do. So if this variant can also counter the missile fleet strategy, then I am hitting 2 birds with 1 stone.

So I was trying to see how can a swarm of interceptors defeat a missile fleet.

Interceptor only have 1 free spot, so what you equip there change it all. I have a few ideas that could maybe work:

Missile vs missile: Powersource, + engine, + engine or computer, + missile.

The idea is to get more initiative than your opponent. Since interceptor start with a stronger basic bonus, it could be easier to get a stronger initiative than your opponent. If you shoot your missile first, you could destroy most of the fleet before it get's a chance to reply.

Now that creates another problem, How do you block a swarm of missile interceptors? Probably with a shit load of shields.

Reinforced hull: Power source, + engine, +weapon, + reinforced hull.

The idea is to make the interceptor soak the damage. Reinforced hull makes each interceptor take 3 hits. So an interceptor can soak 2 missile, and only 3/4 of the hits are used. So 1/4 of the opponent's firepower is wasted. The only problem is that it's the attacker that select the target, so the interceptors cannot cover a larger ship, they need to swarm alone.

Do you have any other ideas of how an interceptor swarm could be effective against a missile fleet.
 
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Jeff Thompson
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Over the weekend I watched the GCDS go down to 27 yellow dice during the missile phase of combat. Another player actually asked me if I was going to stand for that and that I should jump in and "slow him down".

With what?

The only defense is faster missiles.

This guy did win, however it was a close game with him at 24 and 2nd and 3rd at 22. A rep tile here or there was the only difference.

Great game.
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Mr. Octavius
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If you wanted to take the dreadnought on directly I'd probably go for a computer in the available slot. While a hull will soak up more damage you'll have a hard time hitting on a 6. With a computer you'll be sacrificing more interceptors, but hopefully have a decent chance of destroying the dreadnought before it can retreat afterwards.
I wouldn't try to beat it on initiative as dreads have far more slots available to boost their initiative more.

That said, if I have 8 interceptors and my opponent has 2 dreadnoughts, I'm not going to try to fight them in a straight up battle. I'm going to upgrade my drives, pin each of their dreads with an interceptor, and then move into 6 other sectors and plan to destroy their population with neutron bombs. Interceptor swarms don't fight, they're just in too many places at once to deal with. With this strategy I'd go with missiles if available, and a computer if I can beat my opponents initiative, or an improved hull if I can't. The idea being when an interceptor is forced to fight to try to get a lucky shot off if retreat isn't viable.
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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Tompy wrote:
With what?

The only defense is faster missiles.


As much as I don't think missiles are a problem, I do wonder why missiles (which I envisioned as a "pre-battle barrage" type weapon fired from a distance which is why they always go first) should be resolved in initiative order. I think it would be cool if they all flew at once! (still resolve everything in initiative order, but damage applied does not actually kill ships until after the missile phase). Of course this has no regard to balance, intention of missiles, or maybe even logic, that was just my initial reaction to missile combat.
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Jeff Thompson
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BagpipeDan wrote:
Tompy wrote:
With what?

The only defense is faster missiles.


As much as I don't think missiles are a problem, I do wonder why missiles (which I envisioned as a "pre-battle barrage" type weapon fired from a distance which is why they always go first) should be resolved in initiative order. I think it would be cool if they all flew at once! (still resolve everything in initiative order, but damage applied does not actually kill ships until after the missile phase). Of course this has no regard to balance, intention of missiles, or maybe even logic, that was just my initial reaction to missile combat.


I was going to say this exact thing.

Yeah, not broken. I have enjoyed every game I've played.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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The reason an interceptor swarm beats Dreadnoughts is because you pin the Dreadnoughts with only two of your interceptors, leaving you with six interceptors to target key systems that the opponent has. If your Interceptors are upgraded, they might beat any counter-build the opponent has, plus their more-expensive Dreadnoughts might mean they can't even counter-build. Two Dreadnoughts is 16 Materials, whereas three Interceptors is only 9 Materials (15 Materials would give you five Interceptors, so you'll always have a three Interceptor advantage anywhere you do want to fight).

If you go before the Dreadnought player and pin his Dreadnoughts before he can move in, you're sacrificing 3 Materials each Round in order to prevent his 8 Material investment from doing anything. Even if you do this for three rounds (costing you 9 Materials and a bit of money in the movement and building of the interceptors) it might still be worthwhile, especially if you're able to take other hexes as a result or protect valuable 3-VP hexes. Materials are worth no points at the end of the game (unless you've been building Monoliths, I suppose) so it's better to spend them to stop people from taking your hexes.
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Nate
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All you have to do vs a missile opponent is survive with hulls and shields and block off his retreat with an interceptor.
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Riku Riekkinen
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Tompy wrote:
Over the weekend I watched the GCDS go down to 27 yellow dice during the missile phase of combat.


Is 27 yellow missile dice even possible?
 
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Allan Clements
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Riku Riekkinen wrote:
Tompy wrote:
Over the weekend I watched the GCDS go down to 27 yellow dice during the missile phase of combat.


Is 27 yellow missile dice even possible?


With the 3 dice per ship yellow missile, not even 27 can be reached on all fighters. I believe there is only one special yellow missile tile.
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Eike Hanus
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More than 24 yellow missiles should be impossible (3 missiles * 8 interceptors).

I think the variant of missiles being treated as firing simultaneously would be quite interesting since it would mean that pure missile+computer dreadnaughts would very likely also be destroyed in a battle if they use no defenses at all. I'm currently not using any variants and the game plays pretty well but that does not mean I'm not tempted to try out a thing or two in the future.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Spearhead wrote:
I think the variant of missiles being treated as firing simultaneously would be quite interesting since it would mean that pure missile+computer dreadnaughts would very likely also be destroyed in a battle if they use no defenses at all. I'm currently not using any variants and the game plays pretty well but that does not mean I'm not tempted to try out a thing or two in the future.


It is funny because I played my first three games thinking this was the rule (all missiles on both side fire and hit at the same time). They were small games though and the situation never came up.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Quote:
It is funny because I played my first three games thinking this was the rule (all missiles on both side fire and hit at the same time). They were small games though and the situation never came up.


This variant is interesting and make sense. You shoot your missile all at the same time and they hit their target later, so destroying a ship does not prevent it to shoot.
 
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Jeff Thompson
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Kamakaze wrote:
Riku Riekkinen wrote:
Tompy wrote:
Over the weekend I watched the GCDS go down to 27 yellow dice during the missile phase of combat.


Is 27 yellow missile dice even possible?


With the 3 dice per ship yellow missile, not even 27 can be reached on all fighters. I believe there is only one special yellow missile tile
.


4 cruisers. Each with 3 plasma missiles. That's 24 yellow dice. Add a few intercepters and you can get more. True it was probably 28 since it has to be an even number.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Tompy wrote:
4 cruisers. Each with 3 plasma missiles. That's 24 yellow dice. Add a few intercepters and you can get more. True it was probably 28 since it has to be an even number.


Plasma missiles are orange dice.
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Jeff Thompson
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Vanish wrote:
Tompy wrote:
4 cruisers. Each with 3 plasma missiles. That's 24 yellow dice. Add a few intercepters and you can get more. True it was probably 28 since it has to be an even number.


Plasma missiles are orange dice.


Yeah. That's what I meant.

Oops. I apologize.
 
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T H
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This is the way I see it is possible.

5 defending Interceptors with improved Hull and Phase shield, no weapons.
Cost 15 Mat, 12 res, 3-4 phases (2-3 build/move, 1 upgrade).
Needs 10 hits to die.

against

2 Dreadnoughts with Plasma missiles and Positron comp.
16 mat, 20 res, 5 phases (1 build, 1 move, 3 upgrade).

1 comp 5 missiles = 20 dice at 1/6 chance to hit =
3-4 hits

2 comp 4 missiles = 16 dice at 1/2 chance to hit =
8 hits, against this 2 Improved Hulls might be better.

or against

3 Cruisers with Plasma missiles and Positron comp.
15 mat, 20 res, 5 phases (2 build, 1 move, 2 upgrade).

1 comp 3 missiles = 18 dice at 1/6 chance to hit =
3 hits

2 comp 2 missiles = 12 dice at 1/2 chance to hit =
6 hits

So chances are that the attacker is forced to redraw by stalemate and this can give you the chance to block the retreat with ship types, that are not anti missile builds.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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rapsodi wrote:


So chances are that the attacker is forced to redraw by stalemate and this can give you the chance to block the retreat with ship types, that are not anti missile builds.


Wouldn't the attacker just build a single basic interceptor and send it in with the PM fleet? If you defended with any ships which contain guns then the PM player would just have the PM fleet kill that, then have the normal interceptor kill off the entire improved hull fleet.
 
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T H
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Yes maybe

But now you are looking at responses possibilities instead of an isolated situation and that's makes it very hard to analyse whitout an actual game situation to look at.

But a few things:
1 In the example that I gave, your opponent already have used more resources and phases than you, so can he afford it? Remember that isn't only the mats for the ship, it's also the extra phases, one or more move phases and maybe a built phase before he gets that ship into the hex.
2. If you actually could afford to trap his ships by blocking the exits. He would need more then 1 ship to get pass your blockade.
3. That build that I used is only 1 upgrade phase, so you could wait to do this, til the end of the turn.
 
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