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Hornet Leader: Carrier Air Operations» Forums » Rules

Subject: when bandits have no attack values rss

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Charles Ting
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Some bandits like Su 7 and bombers don't have an attack value. How do I determine hits?
 
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Paul S
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DARK IN HERE, ISN'T IT?
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iirc, the bombers are targets only, they don't get to attack.
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Ryan
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They do not attack you. If they are the only bandits/sites left, you do not get attacked.

You resolve your attack against them as you would any other site/bandit.

Start with your chosen munition. An AIM-7 requires a "6" on the die to hit. Your pilot has a +1 AtA modifier. You also have an E-2C with an AtA modifier of +1 participating in the mission. You note the Su-7 has a "to hit" modifier of +2. The sum of the modifiers is +4.

When you roll to attack, you need a value of "6" to destroy the Su-7. Add for to your die roll and compare the value against the "to hit" rating of the AIM-7.

In other words, you need to roll a "2" or higher to destroy the target.
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Charlie Theel
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Beloch wrote:
iirc, the bombers are targets only, they don't get to attack.


I believe you only use those bomber Chits for certain missions. You can't draw those when drawing for bandits.
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Charles Ting
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charlest wrote:
Beloch wrote:
iirc, the bombers are targets only, they don't get to attack.


I believe you only use those bomber Chits for certain missions. You can't draw those when drawing for bandits.

Where does it say that?
 
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Bruno Buss
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charlesting wrote:
charlest wrote:
Beloch wrote:
iirc, the bombers are targets only, they don't get to attack.


I believe you only use those bomber Chits for certain missions. You can't draw those when drawing for bandits.

Where does it say that?


Page 3 of rulebook:

"Enemy Bombers:
[...]
Use these counters to represent the incoming enemy Bombers during the Carrier Defense missions.
[...]
Bomber counters do not move on the Tactical Display like Bandits, they remain in the Center Area. Bomber counters do not Attack your Aircraft."
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Charles Ting
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Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?
 
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Bruno Buss
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charlesting wrote:
Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?


Depends. After you add all the stress from the enemy attack, you check the pilot new status.

You just need to remember that because your aircraft has been damaged, you need to take out all weapons counters... so it can only attack with the aircraft guns/cannons (which is range 0 and need, without any modifiers, a 10 to hit... almost impossible imho ).
 
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Charlie Theel
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charlesting wrote:
Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?


When you are damaged you remove all your weapon counters and can no longer attack.
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Bruno Buss
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charlest wrote:
charlesting wrote:
Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?


When you are damaged you remove all your weapon counters and can no longer attack.


No. You can still attack with guns/cannons (Hit: 10 and Range: 0) with some aircrafts.
 
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Charles Ting
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Other question:
-If suppression is so useful and always available why would someone want to risk of damaging/destroying the aircraft?
(I realize I'm crowding the forum so I'm asking a bunch of unrelated questions under one thread).
 
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Bruno Buss
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charlesting wrote:
Another question: If suppression is so useful and always available why would someone want to risk of damaging/destroying the aircraft?
(I realize I'm crowding the forum so I'm asking a bunch of unrelated questions under one thread).


Because when you suppress an attack, you need to spend weapon counters just cancel that attack but don't destroy the enemy bandit/site.

So if you don't have a lot of munition... you may count on your luck to escape from the attack and then on your turn try to destroy the site/bandit. Or maybe you can't spend much AtG to suppress some site cause you need them to destroy your target.

Another point is that if you make a bad roll, then you spend some munition and don't suppress nothing... so you just wasted some firepower.
 
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Charles Ting
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- can I use both guns AND ordnance at the same time with two die rolls? What's Hit:10 mean?
 
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Bruno Buss
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charlesting wrote:
- can I use both guns AND ordnance at the same time with two die rolls? What's Hit:10 mean?


No, you can attack only with AtG/AtA weapons or only with guns. Take a look at "Attack Restrictions" on page 11 of rulebook.

"Hit:10" is the same as "Attack Number" for the guns. So, without any attack modifiers, you'll need to roll a 10 on your d10 to hit with the guns.
 
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Charles Ting
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- why so SA tokens have numbers on them? If u wanna use them, just remove them regardless the number...
- Guns need to roll a 10 to score a hit-- it's pretty much useless then...
 
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Bruno Buss
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charlesting wrote:
- why so SA tokens have numbers on them? If u wanna use them, just remove them regardless the number...
- Guns need to roll a 10 to score a hit-- it's pretty much useless then...


1) Because if one of your pilots has 2 SA for example, you can put the 2 SA token on him and just flip it to 1 SA when you use it. Same thing if they have 3+ SA... If you try to put 1 SA for everything, I think you'll run out of tokens.

2) It needs a 10 without any modifiers! If you're attacking an enemy bandit, in the same area because guns have a range of 0, and for example it gives +2 on your attacks and your pilot has +1 AtA, you will need to roll 7 or more (7 + 3 = 10). So yes, it's a lot worse than missiles and other weapons... but if this is your last chance (maybe after your aircraft has been damaged or you already spent all your ordinance), it's not impossible to hit...
 
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Charles Ting
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brunobuss wrote:
1) Because if one of your pilots has 2 SA for example, you can put the 2 SA token on him and just flip it to 1 SA when you use it. Same thing if they have 3+ SA... If you try to put 1 SA for everything, I think you'll run out of tokens.

Oh so every time I expend it, it's -1 SA...
 
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Ryan
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brunobuss wrote:
charlest wrote:
charlesting wrote:
Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?


When you are damaged you remove all your weapon counters and can no longer attack.


No. You can still attack with guns/cannons (Hit: 10 and Range: 0) with some aircrafts.


I'm gonna join in here with my interpretation, but I'm interested in what other players think, because I may not be correct.

According to page 13 in the 4th paragraph under "Attack Resolution", the rules state:

If the modified die roll is equal to the second number but less than the third number, the Aircraft is Damaged. Remove all weapon, pod, and Situational Awareness counters and give the Pilot 2 Stress Points. If an Aircraft is Damaged a second time during a mission it is Destroyed.

My emphasis in bold. The text is explicit that all counters, including munitions and pods, are removed. The pilot's status may be okay, shaken, or unfit. The rules do not mention guns/cannon, which is the only weapon not represented by a counter. Here are my two possible interpretations:

d10-1 Since guns/cannons are not explicitly prohibited in the text, they are available to use whether the aircraft is okay or damaged. Thus, if a pilot is okay or shaken, he may be able to score a hit with guns depending on modifiers.

d10-2 While guns/cannons are not explicitly prohibited in the text, the intent of the rules (in my opinion), seems to be that once the aircraft is damaged, it is no longer capable of taking offensive action. Thus, the use of guns/cannons should not be permitted/possible once the aircraft is damaged.

To me, interpretation d10-2 seems to be the best choice, and it is the way I choose to play. If the rules state a damaged aircraft cannot use missiles or bombs, which can be fired successfully from a benign flight path (straight & level), why would the damaged aircraft be allowed to fire guns? Using guns would likely require the pilot to put the damaged aircraft in much more stressful maneuvers, such as a low level strafing attack or those subjected to in a dogfight. In addition, it makes the game a little more challenging, if the damaged aircraft can't defend itself or attempt a last ditch guns attack to destroy a target.

I realize that I may be wrong as far as my interpretation of the rules. I do welcome some other player's insight on this. It would be great if Dan V. would step in to clarify as well. Even if I'm proven wrong, I think I'll still play the way I have chosen so far.

What do the rest of you think?
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Bruno Buss
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Ryanmobile wrote:
brunobuss wrote:
charlest wrote:
charlesting wrote:
Can a damaged aircraft still attack as Slow pilot?


When you are damaged you remove all your weapon counters and can no longer attack.


No. You can still attack with guns/cannons (Hit: 10 and Range: 0) with some aircrafts.


I'm gonna join in here with my interpretation, but I'm interested in what other players think, because I may not be correct.

According to page 13 in the 4th paragraph under "Attack Resolution", the rules state:

If the modified die roll is equal to the second number but less than the third number, the Aircraft is Damaged. Remove all weapon, pod, and Situational Awareness counters and give the Pilot 2 Stress Points. If an Aircraft is Damaged a second time during a mission it is Destroyed.

My emphasis in bold. The text is explicit that all counters, including munitions and pods, are removed. The pilot's status may be okay, shaken, or unfit. The rules do not mention guns/cannon, which is the only weapon not represented by a counter. Here are my two possible interpretations:

d10-1 Since guns/cannons are not explicitly prohibited in the text, they are available to use whether the aircraft is okay or damaged. Thus, if a pilot is okay or shaken, he may be able to score a hit with guns depending on modifiers.

d10-2 While guns/cannons are not explicitly prohibited in the text, the intent of the rules (in my opinion), seems to be that once the aircraft is damaged, it is no longer capable of taking offensive action. Thus, the use of guns/cannons should not be permitted/possible once the aircraft is damaged.

To me, interpretation d10-2 seems to be the best choice, and it is the way I choose to play. If the rules state a damaged aircraft cannot use missiles or bombs, which can be fired successfully from a benign flight path (straight & level), why would the damaged aircraft be allowed to fire guns? Using guns would likely require the pilot to put the damaged aircraft in much more stressful maneuvers, such as a low level strafing attack or those subjected to in a dogfight. In addition, it makes the game a little more challenging, if the damaged aircraft can't defend itself or attempt a last ditch guns attack to destroy a target.

I realize that I may be wrong as far as my interpretation of the rules. I do welcome some other player's insight on this. It would be great if Dan V. would step in to clarify as well. Even if I'm proven wrong, I think I'll still play the way I have chosen so far.

What do the rest of you think?


I need to say that I don't remember any time that after my aircraft has been damaged and I tried to shot anything with just it's guns... usually I prefer to save my brave pilots ass so he can fight another day. So although we have been playing under different rules set for this... our gameplay has been exactly the same .

The way I see the damaged aircraft, is that it make all targeting systems offline (so no missiles) and about the ordinance like bombs, that you would need just to make a straight run and release it... I think that it's not a good thing that any pilot arm the bomb and on the release time there is a mechanical failure on the aircraft and now he's flying with armed payload, ready to explode.
(I don't even know if this kind of bomb needs to be armed... but this is the way I imagined it )

I really see the guns as very "basic system" of aircraft...
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Ryan
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Bruno,

I do agree that the instances where the need for a damaged aircraft to fire its cannons are probably few and far between. Probably rare enough that it's not terribly important how you interpret the rule.

But I'll stick with guns being unusable as well as counters.
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