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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rule 28.24 rss

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Patrick Bauer
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Rule 28.24 states : "Air units on bases which are overrun by enemy units are not destroyed. They move to the nearest controlled air base that has room to base them..."

Situation:


When the Italian airbase and partial air wing at LL24 is overrun what exactly happens to the air units? I believe normally, two factors would be displace to Tobruk and one to Bengazi but Italy does not have the partials to do this because its only 1-4 is already on the map at Taranto by itself and thus unable to combine for use elsewhere.

Which of the two possibilities occurs:

1) Two factors get displaced to Tobruk and one factor is eliminated due to lack of partials?

or

2) Does the entire 3-4 move to Bengazi?

In essence: Does a player's inability to breakdown into sufficient partial air allow him to forego moving part of the air to the nearer base?
 
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Steve Vondra
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SewerStarFish wrote:
Rule 28.24 states : "Air units on bases which are overrun by enemy units are not destroyed. They move to the nearest controlled air base that has room to base them..."

I would use

Quote:
2) Does the entire 3-4 move to Bengazi?


as Bengazi is the only base that has room for the unit (as currently on the board, that is not broken down further)

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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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I would certainly agree that air factors should not be lost, as long as there is capacity within range to handle them. So, in the instance cited, there appears to be no alternative but to have the entire 3-4 rebase to Benghazi.

However, the more difficult question perhaps would be, what if the Italians did have the necessary partials to allow a breakdown? Would the breakdown then be 'forced', with the 2 factors going to the nearest base, and the 1 to the next closest? Or should the air unit, as a whole go to the nearest base that can hold it, even if a closer base can accommodate some, but not all, of it? If so, then what if no one base in range could handle the whole units, but two or more could handle part of the total?
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Steve Vondra
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I don't think so. I don't have the rules in front of me but IIRC, You're only allowed to breakdown air during one phase(can't recall which) or to satisfy losses. If the base at Bengazi is open and Tobruk cannot take the entire unit, then the unit cannot break down (?)

I really should go downstairs and check the rulebook.

 
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Doug Poskitt
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The rules state that airwings may be recombined or broken down at any point in a player's turn. (28.61).

However, while I cannot find a rule mentioning it, players do break down airwings to accommodate losses in combat during an opponent's turn.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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I agree with Patrick Doug (sorry about that) on that one. Air units can be broken down and combined 'at any time'. You can even combine them so as to use one SR, then immediately break them down into their constituent parts, even if part is inverted and part not. Obviously they can be broken down to provide various air missions. That extends to breaking down to provide DAS during the opponent's turn, as well as obviously suffering losses.

Regarding breaking down during opponent's turn:

Quote:
DQB May air counters be broken down during the opponent‘s turn in order to allocate DAS?

A. Yes.


Not sure if there's anything explicit regarding breaking down on an opponent's turn to accommodate losses, however, I can't imagine playing it any other way. If a defender's 5-4 was intercepted on a DAS mission, and suffered a loss of 1, would you really eliminate the entire 5-4 because he is not allowed to break down the unit?
 
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Vicomte13 13
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deadkenny wrote:

However, the more difficult question perhaps would be, what if the Italians did have the necessary partials to allow a breakdown? Would the breakdown then be 'forced', with the 2 factors going to the nearest base, and the 1 to the next closest?


That is the correct answer.

Rule 28.24 states : "Air units on bases which are overrun by enemy units are not destroyed. They move to the nearest controlled air base that has room to base them..."

There is nothing in the rule about breaking up, or not breaking up, air units in this case. The rule just says that they move to the nearest controlled airbase that has room for them. If you have the factors, you can break them up, so to comply with the rule you have to. But if you DON'T have the partials, then you can't break them up, and the rules says that the air units of an overrun base "are not lost" if there's a base nearby. So if you can break up, you must, but if you can't break up and you'd lose units and there's another base, you go to the other base.
 
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Vicomte13 13
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deadkenny wrote:

Not sure if there's anything explicit regarding breaking down on an opponent's turn to accommodate losses, however, I can't imagine playing it any other way.


There is. 23.4322 speaks of how elimination of factors are done. There's nothing at all in the rules that suggests a limit to the defender being limited to his current size by counter losses.

The rule very explicitly directs a full number and a half number of air factors.

A question in the rulebook (pg, 30) asks this:

Q. 28.4322/28.641 The die says the loser has to eliminate one air factor. He happens to have some of his partials in use, and it develops that he has to lose TWO factors because of this, per 28.641 (the rule which limits the breakdown of air units to the counter mix) Does the winner now have to eliminate a factor per 28.4322.

A, No.

Note that nowhere in there was there any distinction made between whether or not the winner or the loser was the attacker on his player turn, or the defender on his.

The rules very clearly assign specific losses to winner and loser, irrespective of who is moving and who is not. If defenders were limited to losing their counters exactly as on the board and could not break down units as necessary for losses, all of the rules regarding loss allocations would be meaningless. The rule would, instead, be that the defender must lose the units according to the size of his units.

This would mean, as a practical matter, that nobody would ever end his turn with any 5-4 air factors, because all I would have to do is send a 2-4 against it on my turn (and the worse the better - send Italians after the Brits to get the -1 factor. Lose both my air points, and the British must lose their whole 5-4 air unit, even though they're only required by the combat results to lose 1 factor (half of my losses).

This would be a tremendous change in the rules.

Fortunately, the rules do cover the situation, both by what they describe, and by what they never even hint at.

Bottom line: your read of the rules has always been the right read.
 
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Doug Poskitt
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Agree fully. Whether attacker or defender, a player can always use partial counters in his force pool (if available) to accommodate losses.

edit: /// spelling
 
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Vicomte13 13
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Agree with the above.

I think the point of the rule saying that the player can break up his air units into sub counter during his turn was to make the point that he could break it up and fly the broken up units to different bases.

That is something that doesn't happen to the defender, other than in the forced retreat case.
 
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