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Subject: The Right Moment rss

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Eric Rampson
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Sorry of this has been answered before.

If you have The Right Moment as your tactic card, can you use it on the
Sat turn of the game to get an extra turn? I was fourth player to choose tactics in the final round of a game last week and I chose this one. Player One burned a bunch of cards and crystals to explore the final tile and trigger the game end. It seems to me that, since Player One gets the final turn of the game after my last turn, I should be able to use the tactic but i was overruled and, since it was late and I wasn't going to win, I let it go.
 
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Matt McCourty
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I don't see why not.

I mean if you were doing badly and your additional turn wouldn't have added anything then I can imagine players saying "you know what, I think we're done" but nothing I know of prevents you using that tactic in the last turn.
 
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Simon Skov
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Remind me, what does The Right Moment say?
 
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Paul Grogan
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Scud-O wrote:
Sorry of this has been answered before.

If you have The Right Moment as your tactic card, can you use it on the
Sat turn of the game to get an extra turn? I was fourth player to choose tactics in the final round of a game last week and I chose this one. Player One burned a bunch of cards and crystals to explore the final tile and trigger the game end. It seems to me that, since Player One gets the final turn of the game after my last turn, I should be able to use the tactic but i was overruled and, since it was late and I wasn't going to win, I let it go.


You can indeed use this tactic card to get another turn right after your previous one, even if this is the last turn of the round.
 
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Tim Seitz
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I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it would be useful to pick this card over something else. Yea, I get an extra turn, but I'd get the same effect if I picked #1, which also has no advantage other than going first. So #1 let's me go first, but #6 means I can be the first with 2 turns.

I suppose it's useful if I explore something and then want to immediately pounce on it, but I am not sure I could have predicted that from the tactics phase, and some of the other effects seem better.
 
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Paul Beakley
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out4blood wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it would be useful to pick this card over something else. Yea, I get an extra turn, but I'd get the same effect if I picked #1, which also has no advantage other than going first. So #1 let's me go first, but #6 means I can be the first with 2 turns.

I suppose it's useful if I explore something and then want to immediately pounce on it, but I am not sure I could have predicted that from the tactics phase, and some of the other effects seem better.


Well...I used it the other night when I had started my turn in a Monastery, drawn 4 wounds from a previous round, and enough starting Influence to fully heal myself. I liked taking this because it basically allowed me to do a full clean-out, draw, and then start with a normal, non-wounded turn. There was also an adjacent 3-blue altar, and another hero just two turns away from jumping it.

Fairly narrow and specific case, but it felt like a better play than drawing #1. But maybe it wasn't? Agreed that it's not an especially great pull. If I hadn't also pulled the Influence I'd have much rather have taken Rethink, for example.

 
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Guy Srinivasan
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Seems most useful for stealing opponents' stuff, and thus most useful in 2-player games.
 
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Chris Maloof

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out4blood wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it would be useful to pick this card over something else. Yea, I get an extra turn, but I'd get the same effect if I picked #1, which also has no advantage other than going first. So #1 let's me go first, but #6 means I can be the first with 2 turns.


Seems like #1 is useful if there's something you want to beat the other players to right now.

#6, by contrast, is useful if there's something you want to beat the other players to at the end of any of your turns.

And #6 grants as many or more turns than #1 -- if that's what matters to you, taking #6 is like taking #0.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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I have a doubt about this card: do I have to declare its use at any moment during my turn, so any moment before replenishing my hand, or can I use it even after having replenished my hand?

I'd say at any moment before the final draw, since after I draw the cards my turn is technically over.
 
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Paul Grogan
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Galandil wrote:
I have a doubt about this card: do I have to declare its use at any moment during my turn, so any moment before replenishing my hand, or can I use it even after having replenished my hand?

I'd say at any moment before the final draw, since after I draw the cards my turn is technically over.


The way the game normally plays is that you first re-roll the mana die you used and then the next player starts their turn. You then clear up your own area, putting your cards in the discard pile, taking combat rewards, etc. and you are right, almost the last thing you do is draw cards, and by that point, the other player is probably half way through his turn.

So.... I'd say you have to use it before any of that starts.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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PaulGrogan wrote:
The way the game normally plays is that you first re-roll the mana die you used and then the next player starts their turn. You then clear up your own area, putting your cards in the discard pile, taking combat rewards, etc. and you are right, almost the last thing you do is draw cards, and by that point, the other player is probably half way through his turn.

So.... I'd say you have to use it before any of that starts.


Thank you, I read Vlaada's answer in another thread too ( http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8586250#8586250 ).

But, what happens if the next player wants to start after I performed my End of Turn phase? May I declare in this case another turn during the End of Turn phase (before replenishing my hand, even after?) or not?
 
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Paul Grogan
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The answer is in the other thread. You must use it before your 'end of turn'. Before the next player has started.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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PaulGrogan wrote:
The answer is in the other thread. You must use it before your 'end of turn'. Before the next player has started.


Paul, I don't want to seem harsh, but this answer is not satisfactory, per rules.

A Player's Turn - Rule 7.b: Inform the next player (per the Round Order tokens) that they may now start their turn. This speeds up the play of the game. However, if the next player insists, he may wait until you completely finish your turn before they start theirs.

So, per this rule, logic dictates that my turn is not over, even during the End of Turn phase (I have to "completely finish" my turn -> it's still my turn -> I can still use the Right Moment tactic).

My precise question is: is my turn completely over as soon as I replenished my hand (I draw the cards -> can't use the tactic), or in this particular case I can use the tactic even after drawing my cards (something like "the trigger for ending my turn is me saying to the next player "your turn""?).

I hope now that I've made myself a little more clear than before.
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Simon Kamber
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Galandil wrote:

A Player's Turn - Rule 7.b: Inform the next player (per the Round Order tokens) that they may now start their turn. This speeds up the play of the game. However, if the next player insists, he may wait until you completely finish your turn before they start theirs.


The way I read it, it goes like this:

He may insist, but you may not. You must inform him that he may now start his turn.

What this rule says, basically, is that if you are both stalling to see what the other player does, you must play first. That is a necessary clarification since you could conceivable have a situation where either player would benefit from basing his decision on what the other player did during his turn.
 
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Alessandro Cingolani
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I read it the other way, based on the This speeds up the play of the game part.

Most often than not, my End of Turn procedure doesn't affect at all the next player's turn (I just replenish my hand, he doesn't know the cards that I draw, so nothing changes for his ensuing turn).

Some other times, of course, what I do in my End of Turn phase does matter for the next player's turn: for example, he badly wants a Unit, and he planned his turn to obtain it, but if I just completed a turn completing a Ruin with a Unit reward, if I take the Unit that he wants, then he's not anymore interested in acquiring a Unit, thus changing his plan.

In the end, there're a couple of points in the rules that are worded in a way that states clearly that a turn is not over until you replenish your hand at the end of the End of Turn phase, specifically the one I mentioned before, AND even the End of Turn - 1. paragraph: You can complete your turn while the next player starts theirs. You can't "complete" something that it's already over.

From a strict intrepretation point of view, there's a moment in which 2 players are both playing their turns. And the fact that the other player may asks you to "...completely finish your turn..." reinforces the idea, per rules, that my turn is NOT over until the end of step 7 of the End of Turn phase.

If the step 1 of the EoT phase stated something like: "Your turn is now over. The next player can start his turn while you perform the following upkeep actions. He may asks that you perform your upkeep actions before starting his turn.", then it would be completely clear as when a turn ends and when another one starts.
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Paul Grogan
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Galandil wrote:

Paul, I don't want to seem harsh, but this answer is not satisfactory, per next player "your turn""?)


The official answer is, as per my previous post, and what Vlaada said in the other thread, that you have to announce the use of this card BEFORE your End of Turn step, BEFORE you draw new cards.

I cannot say any more on it really.
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Ilias Sellountos
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I think it is not very productive to try to use the wording of a rule that was meant to speed up the game, in order to try to manipulate how the game plays. It is clear to me that the spirit of the rule is that a ssoon as you are done with anything that could affect the next player's decisions you should let them start and then proceed with the end of turn book keeping, award selection and cleanup.

I would view any attempt from the previous player to gain advantage by delaying decisions until he can see what the next player is doing an abuse of the rules, if not clear cheating.

Any play of a card or ability that allows the current player to get another turn right away or in any other way alter the environment that the next player is basing their own turn on (other than taking reward cards off the offerings, but in that case the next player has the option to wait until they see what the decision is), has to be played before the next player is informed that they may start their turn.
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Chris Linneman
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out4blood wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it would be useful to pick this card over something else. Yea, I get an extra turn, but I'd get the same effect if I picked #1, which also has no advantage other than going first. So #1 let's me go first, but #6 means I can be the first with 2 turns.

I suppose it's useful if I explore something and then want to immediately pounce on it, but I am not sure I could have predicted that from the tactics phase, and some of the other effects seem better.


I used this Tactics card in my recent 2p game. I had 2 keeps, and was standing outside an unconquered keep adjacent to the final city in a Full Conquest. My opponent had less fame and took #1 (go first). He clearly planned to attack the keep, to prevent me from getting a base from which to assault the city. So I took Right Moment so that I could move to conquer a Spawning Ground, also adjacent to the city, then immediately use the mana crystals and artifact to assault the city before he could. This allowed me to get majority leader of the city.

I admit the tactics card is rarely useful, but it is very nice when it does come into play.
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Bryan F
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out4blood wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a scenario where it would be useful to pick this card over something else. Yea, I get an extra turn, but I'd get the same effect if I picked #1, which also has no advantage other than going first. So #1 let's me go first, but #6 means I can be the first with 2 turns.

I suppose it's useful if I explore something and then want to immediately pounce on it, but I am not sure I could have predicted that from the tactics phase, and some of the other effects seem better.


Choosing #1 tactic only gives you two turns in a row if you took the last turn of the previous round. Aside from that, I think that The Right Moment is quite useful under the right circumstances. I'd say that it would be best used near the end of the game when assaulting cities. If you and your opponent(s) are both near the same city, if you are only able to defeat, say, 1 enemy in that city, leaving only two for your opponent, it might make sense for you to take that extra turn to make sure that you end up as the city leader. Or you could use it two conquer two cities in a row or one city and a keep near the other city to set up your next turn, and hopefully solidify your chances.

The other time I actually find this card to be somewhat useful is in the solo game. Usually by the third round my deck is much larger than the dummy player's and if it has a lot of crystals of one colour it can easily churn through it's deck in only three or four turns. In this situation I've used The Right Moment to make sure I actually get the opportunity to use as much of my deck as I can before the dummy forces end of round.



Galandil wrote:
My precise question is: is my turn completely over as soon as I replenished my hand (I draw the cards -> can't use the tactic), or in this particular case I can use the tactic even after drawing my cards (something like "the trigger for ending my turn is me saying to the next player "your turn""?).


I can't really imagine any scenario where you wouldn't know well before hand- meaning before you began your end of turn actions and before you draw new cards- that you would need or want to use The Right Moment.

True, while you are taking combat rewards and adding new cards to your deck that you may want to use right away, there's still no excuse to wait until after you've declared that you are beginning your turn clean up, as all the unit, spell and advanced action cards are visible. Artifacts are of course not visible, but I think in the spirit of good fun and fair play it would be fairly unsportsmanlike of you to pull any shenanigans with the tactic card. If anything you might ask your opponent(s) if in this special occasion you may choose your artifact reward before deciding to use The Right Moment.

Either way you slice it, if you tell your opponent(s) you are done, reroll source dice and they begin their turn, I'd say you are out of luck.
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Mikko Kaskela
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Scud-O wrote:

If you have The Right Moment as your tactic card, can you use it on the
Sat turn of the game to get an extra turn?


You can indeed use this tactic card to get another turn right after your previous one, even if this is the last turn of the round.


Sorry for necroing this, was looking for an answer and Paul's opinion is likely quite close to an official one... but it was not explained and that left me wondering why exactly it is so.
Rulebook says after round end has been declared everyone "takes one last turn". Is there a rule that in case of conflicts cards take precedence? Or some other rule to go by to allow The Right Moment to give you an extra turn after your "last" turn?
 
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Tom H
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Right Moment lets you take a turn that the normal rules do not allow you. Breaking the normal rules is a key function of many MK cards.
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Mikko Kaskela
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Terah wrote:
Right Moment lets you take a turn that the normal rules do not allow you. Breaking the normal rules is a key function of many MK cards.


Yeah, might be that no further reasoning is needed. It should then also give an extra turn after game end has been triggered.

But a bonus question:
If I trigger game end myself on the turn I flip The Right Moment, will I get an extra turn immediately and yet another turn after everyone else has played their final turns?
 
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Trevin Beattie
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Yes.
 
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