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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » General

Subject: No Retreat vs Stalin's War? rss

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Gian Carlo Ceccoli
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I have read the rules of No Retrea; tonight I'm playing my first game with a friend.
A few thoughts:
- The score is high on BGG and I thought I was faced with a "news game"; on the contrary to the rules I have a good game but nothing new;
- The scale is very strategic; units are Army and Fronts; usual rules of movement, feeding, fighting. For the fighting, even I see a classic table has some news for the attacker, but that seems like a change to the old Avalon Hill of the years '80.
- Another novelty, perhaps, the cards, following the fashion of the last few years, a cross between a card driven and more.

I do not understand, I think the game is good, but it is perhaps a doublet of dozens of other similar titles. And the same GMT, which has published a game very, very similar, but Crad driven, Stalin's war, it has maybe two titles "equal"?
Mha, and I hope that the game is beautiful.

Some players had the chance to play the two titles? Stalin's War vs. No Retreat?
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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GC58 wrote:
I thought I was faced with a "news game"; on the contrary to the rules I have a good game but nothing new;

Totally. I feel like GMT ripped off everything in this game from an Eastern Front game I played a while ago, published by Victory Point Games. Even the title is practically the same!

(If you want to say this game has nothing new, you might support that by saying which other games you're thinking of which use the same approach for changing the available events over the course of the game, or which handle the gradual improvement of the Soviet forces the same way, or which use discards for replacements/rail moves/etc., or which use the Axis high tide as the bar the Soviets must reach, or which have a Counterblow concept, or which even attempt the entire eastern front with 20 counters per side--and once you've done that, you might also mention which games tie those elements together the same way this one does, because it's the way all those previously used elements like hexes & terrain types & CRTs & victory conditions are combined that makes a game. Just throwing out a claim like "this game has nothing new" without supporting it doesn't do you or anyone else any good.)
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C M
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Since you will be playing the game tonight, I think you will be able to judge yourself quickly what new things this game brings to the table. I find that this game is quite unique in the way it blends several proven mechanisms to achieve a somewhat realistic, strategic scale engagement with relatively simple rules and few counters. Besides, it is a beauty to look at.
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David Brown
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No Retreat is a brilliant design.

When it was first proposed by GMT, I doubted that a game on the Eastern Front with so few units would be any good. I have been proved wrong.

It is without doubt my best wargame purchase in the last five years.

As the saying goes 'There is nothing new under the Sun' - Cards, hexes, dice, ZOCs, CRTs, Russian Winters, Armoured advances etc etc have all been used before and therefore there is nothing new in this game. But it all fits togther perfectly and is a wonderfully playable game that models history as good as any east front game can
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Carl Paradis
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BTW the last (and definitive) version of the Living rules will be available as soon as GMT can edit the chnages.

In the meantime you can get these here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/76284/final-set-of-err....

Of course that document is made to ease the task of the GMT rules editor, So here are the important changes between the first release of the game, and the new amended rules in an easy to understand format:

1- The Axis now use the Soviet Combat Tables for the Snow and Long Winter turns in the USSR.

2- The Soviets "Shock" markers get a 2-shift bonus (instead of the Regular one) on the first snow turn of the game.

3- The Soviet tanks can stack with other units (except Forts) starting on turn 11.

4- The Axis has to discard one card of their choice on the "Red Event" turns.

5- When a destroyed unit appears on a Kampfgruppe/Ostatky unistlocation and replaces it, it's now also not disorganized.

6- Some adjustments to the Victory point conditions of the scenarios and the campaign game "constinuation"rules.

7- At the start of the game the Axis still picks up 6 cards, but has to discard 2, keeping 4.

8- If the Sebastopol Regional Unit appears in Sebastopol on turn 3, it does so already fortified.
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Carl Paradis
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GC58 wrote:
Some players had the chance to play the two titles? Stalin's War vs. No Retreat?


I did, but my judgement is a little bit biased.

When GMT asked me to publish the game, I wondered if it was a good idea, as "Stalin's War" was to be released in a few months. They answered me that the two were very different and that there was no problem in having both!

The scale is the same, yet different. Yes about the same hex scale (albeit you get IMHO a much more comfortable play surface with NR!), but you have LOTS more counters in Stalin's War, 368 vs 134 (of which less than 80 are military units used in the game). SW thus takes much longer to play and set-up, too. No scenarios in that game, either.

Sooo... It all depends on your gaming tastes, really, The way both games simulate the campaign are entierly different, the emphasis is not put on the same things. If you like games with lots of counters, SW is your bet bet by far!

The ONE issue I have with Stalin's War is that there is not enough interesting Event Cards, especially for Combat: there is too many cards "wasted" for reinforcement arrivals. IMHO this is much better taken care of on the turn track, leaving more space for cool events.

It is interesting to note that NR! has 55 cards to SW 110 cards, yet there is the same amount of Events in both games, and if you don't count the cards "wasted" on reinforcement arrivals, NR! has MORE events, plus no cards are "Burned" for the deck, never to see action again: everything is recycled.

The ONE issu I have with "No Retreat!" is that I would have loved to put in a bit MORE cards, and a bit MORE counters (but not too much more!). I was constrained by the form factor of the game, so this was not possible.

Mind you, both games do "new stuff" with "Old Stuff". SW is using the "Paths of Glory" CDG game system, and NR! is using bits and pieces of "classic" games, plus a few new concepts.
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Carl Paradis
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thirtybrowns wrote:
When it was first proposed by GMT, I doubted that a game on the Eastern Front with so few units would be any good. I have been proved wrong.


Hey, in the Victory Point Games basic edition I was limited to 40 counters, 24 event cards, and one 11x17 map, to simulate the same war (but the year 1945)!!!

No Retreat!

Deluxe No Retreat! is the evolution of that game, but the first edition is still really cool to play, alone ofr with the No Surrender! expansion.



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Alex
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Carl,

I'm wondering: what counters would you add? and what Cards would you add?

I mean... you could, right? since there were those "wasted" counters with panzer pictures, and with the initiative marker... so you could have at least 7 more...

Alex
 
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Carl Paradis
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GangZda wrote:
Carl,

I'm wondering: what counters would you add? and what Cards would you add?

I mean... you could, right? since there were those "wasted" counters with panzer pictures, and with the initiative marker... so you could have at least 7 more...

Alex


Hey, these are not "wasted!" LOL! But yes, if there is a second edtion I could probably use them. But not more cards.
 
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Alex
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for what?
 
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Carl Paradis
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GangZda wrote:
for what?


Probably some "Breakdown Counters" for both the Germans and the Russians, for one Tank/Panzer Army each, probably also some extra smaller units, like the Soviet "Coastal Army" and stuff like that.

I'm pretty open to suggestions, really. In fact I could make some quite fast and post the graphic files here. When I have the time, that is!!!
 
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Patrick B
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Quick question on the new rules. For 14.13

"• To mark the ownership of key hexes along the front line, particularly where it might affect
Supply Paths. ----> REMOVE THIS FROM THE RULES!"

Do you mean that just that sentence is removed, or that all the sentences after that are removed (in the control marker section)?
 
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Carl Paradis
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bignickel wrote:
Quick question on the new rules. For 14.13

"• To mark the ownership of key hexes along the front line, particularly where it might affect
Supply Paths. ----> REMOVE THIS FROM THE RULES!"

Do you mean that just that sentence is removed, or that all the sentences after that are removed (in the control marker section)?


No, just that sentence.

BTW I got in the new "2nd edition" rulebook from GMT, and there is one small typing error left to correct. The rest is good. I should have the Reference/Scenario booklet tomorrow.

So expect the final new version to be available on-line VERY soon, next week at the latest.
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