Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
49 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » PBEM » The Village Square

Subject: Feedback desired on new ruleset rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ron
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
Hello all!

I'm sure that someone has attempted running a Werewolf game where the wolves have individual kills. I haven't seen one in a while (although I might have missed it), and I have attempted to brainstorm out a feasible, semi-balanced solution. After putting this batch of roles together with tcrudisi, he ran the game in a F2F scenario and it -almost- worked perfectly. In the meantime, here are the available roles. PLEASE READ TO THE END. There are significant changes to this idea from the standard Werewolf game.

Oh. Looking at Cassy, I'd guess this barely scratches into the Medium difficulty level, and mainly due to the number of roles plus the variant-play from standard WW.

I plan on starting a game based on this ruleset (or what it turns into after hearing feedback) as 1500 draws to a close. In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate hearing any constructive criticism. Or positive feedback. Heh.

FYI - The formatting of this potential rulepost is based off of Raid's P11 threads, but there are a number of additions.

---

Good Roles:

2x Seer - Each night receives a vision of a target player and learns the players nature (Wolf/Not Wolf). Note that the Seer only sees Wolf/Not Wolf. The Seer does not identify Evil / Not Evil. The seer receives a vision on Night 0 of one randomly chosen player that is not a wolf. Thereafter, the seer chooses which player to view. Seers are aware of each other, but will not share a chat.
1x Apprentice Seer - Begins the game with no special ability. Upon the death of a Seer, will immediately be promoted and receive the Seer's ability. Apprentice Seer does NOT know who the other two Seers are.
1x Brutal Hunter - If only two players remain in the game and the hunter is one of those players, then the good team wins even if the other player is a werewolf. He is brutal when lynched or killed. The brutal kill is mandatory. If there is no order in modchat then it will be selected at random by the moderator.
1x Martyr - Each night, may choose one player, and if that player is targeted for night kill, the martyr will die in his place. The martyr may choose the same person consecutively without restriction. The martyr ONLY protects from night kills, not from lynches and not from the brutal strike.
1x Tinker - When viewed by a Seer, will show as a Werewolf. Tinker is a Good Role.
1x Troublemaker - As a night action, the Troublemaker can require the game to have two lynches during the following day.
1x Prince - Cannot be killed on his first lynch. No other special powers.
10x Villagers - Ordinary villagers with no special powers. One random villager will be an unknown tough.

Evil Roles:

3x Werewolves - The werewolves know each other's identity. Each night the wolves EACH choose one target player to kill. There is no kill on Night 0. There are no brutal werewolves. Note: Werewolves will NOT share a chat in Cassy.
1x Sorcerer - The sorcerer knows the identity of the werewolves and wins with them, even if dead. Each night, he may view a player to see if they are a seer or not. He gets a random negative N0 view. The Apprentice Seer will register as a Seer, even if not promoted.
1x Minion - Knows the identity of the other Evils, and will win with them, even if dead. No other special powers.

Victory Conditions:
Good - All good players win if all werewolves are eliminated, or if the last two players remaining are the hunter and one werewolf.
Evil - All evil players win if the wolves achieve parity: if at any time the number of wolves remaining equals the number of non-wolves remaining, evil wins. However, if one wolf is left with the hunter, then good wins.

Brutal Rules:
If a target is not selected, the brutal will be random. In the endgame scenario where there is: 1 Hunter, 1 Wolf, and 1 other non-wolf (Villager, Good special, Sorcerer), and the Hunter is lynched and targets the wolf, the wolf will be killed, and good wins. Parity will be checked after all processing is complete.

Lynch Rules:
Each day players vote for one player to be lynched. The player receiving the most votes is killed. If there is a tie between two or more players, the tied player with the longest held last vote is killed.
Lynch time will be determined by poll. Earliest possible lynch is 2:00pm BGG time. Latest possible lynch is 7:00pm BGG time. There will be two hours between Dusk and Dawn.
Votes cast with this time-stamp are counted. Votes cast after this time are invalid. Votes made during the night phase are invalid.
All votes must conform to the Cassandra Vote Tally System rules. (Will be posted once the game starts). If all living players vote night fall it will
speed up the dusk. If there is a tie in the lynch votes, it will be broken by longest held last vote.
Roles will be revealed on death.

Night Orders:
Wolves must submit their night kill orders by 'midnight' of the dusk-dawn cycle (actual times TBD). All remaining night orders can be submitted at any time during the dusk-dawn cycle (but will obviously be smarter to finish after 'midnight'). They do this by using the Cassandra Game Order system in the Cassandra Chat System.
If all living players (including those with out night actions) click on the 'Lock Game Actions' button it will speed up Dawn.

PLEASE NOTE THESE SPECIAL RULES FOR THIS GAME:
1. Each Wolf will get a Night Kill order. These orders will NOT be shared via Cassandra and Wolves will be unable to communicate with each other outside of the thread.
2. Seers will know themselves, but will also be unable to communicate via chat.
3. Dusk - Dawn will be a TWO HOUR CYCLE. Werewolf kills will be announced at the midpoint of the Dusk-Dawn cycle (any Night Kill order put in after Midnight will not be accepted). All other characters with a Night Action will be able to wait to post their game action until after the kills are announced. A [midnight] announcement will be made to reveal all players killed at night.

Important Information:
Tiebreaker: longest held last vote
Lynch time: TBD BGG
Night Action Deadline: TBD BGG

Weekend Policy: This game will not run over the weekend.

This game will start when full.

-----

Anyway, that's my idea. Having multiple kills a day should drop the population down quickly, but not having a wolf chat should make the wolves inefficient. Obviously, this game can be very swingy if the wolves luck out and hit a seer early. But there are ways for the village to shoot themselves in the foot, too.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts. Thank you!

- and as I said, I AM planning on starting this or something very much like this in about a week. I'll start it earlier if enough people show an interest.

EDIT: One of my posts on Page 3 of this thread has the current version roleset (3.0).

Thanks for the ongoing discussion - I do appreciate all of the comments!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
linguistfromhell wrote:
1x Apprentice Seer - Begins the game with no special ability. Upon the death of a Seer, will immediately be promoted and receive the Seer's ability. Apprentice Seer does NOT know who the other two Seers are.

Will the Apprentice Seer be made aware of the name of the other Seer who is still alive if they get promoted?



Also, I wonder if maybe Good is too heavily outweighing evil in this scenario? I did the math with my phone using the numbers from the cards for F2F werewolf and it looks like there should be a brutal wolf or something... I don't know, maybe since tcrud has run this game F2F it works out better in play the way you have it, but it is just my opinion. I am not the queen of game balance either, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

meeple
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
admin
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1. Does the apprentice seer learn the identity of the other seer upon promotion?

2. Does the Tinker know they are a tinker?

3. Is the tough villager tough to both night kill and/or lynch?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jmilum wrote:
1. Does the apprentice seer learn the identity of the other seer upon promotion?

2. Does the Tinker know they are a tinker?

3. Is the tough villager tough to both night kill and/or lynch?


Hey, I can answer some of these! wow
1. is the question I just asked him
2. is a good question.
3. Prince is only tough to lynch, not NK.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
linguistfromhell wrote:
jmilum wrote:
1. Does the apprentice seer learn the identity of the other seer upon promotion?

2. Does the Tinker know they are a tinker?

3. Is the tough villager tough to both night kill and/or lynch?



Good questions, J. Thanks.

1. After Amanda's initial query on the AS, yes, it feels as though it would make sense to inform the new-Seer of the remaining Seer immediately upon promotion.

2. In TCRud's game, the character was playing a known Tinker. He didn't mention any specific incidents stemming from that, but the initial plan is that, yes, he/she knows. Maybe it would be too powerful if used as an unknown Tinker ..? I haven't played with hidden Tinker before, so I don't know how it would turn out.

3. As written, the tough villager was intended to be tough to night kills. Maybe that's a useless skill if it doesn't also work with lynches. Perhaps to counter - 1 random villager is a known tough, either for a single NK or a single lynch, but not both. Then enhance the Prince character to be permanently immune to Lynches, so as to allow for some confusion.


Oops.
Quote:
1x Prince - Cannot be killed on his first lynch. No other special powers.
10x Villagers - Ordinary villagers with no special powers. One random villager will be an unknown tough.

I got these two mixed up. My bad, sorry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
F5
United States
Shoreline
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What happens if multiple wolves try to NK the same person, but the Martyr protects that person? I didn't thoroughly read your rules, but a casual skimming of them didn't find anything that covered this. Will the Martyr's death replace all of that night's NK attempts against that player, or only the first one?

In other words, if Wolf 1 NKs Seer and Wolf 2 also NKs Seer, but Martyr protects Seer, which of these results happens?

1. Martyr dies, Seer lives.
2. Martyr and Seer both die.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Rudisill
United States
Winston-Salem
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My wife was a Werewolf. She said that it felt unbalanced against her. "It felt unbalanced because we lost the first kill early on and it's really important to catch the Seers." Seeing it play out, I'm not sure I agree. I think that either the wolves win a commanding victory or the village barely manages to eek it out. It would be intimidating to see a huge village in front of you and only 3 wolves ... but those 3 nk's a night really slim it down in a hurry.

The group I play with plays Sorcs very, very poorly. For example, our Sorc just came out and said "I'm the Sorc, these people are not Seers" instead of trying to bluff seer and either out the real Seer or try to get a random villager killed. Had this happened, I think the village barely (and I mean barely) wins - and that's with the d1 lynching of a wolf.

The one thing I can definitely say is that we all had fun playing it. This game was a nice change of pace and even if it is slightly unbalanced one way or another, it was incredibly fun to moderate and I had good reviews from everyone who played (excepting those who died on n1). Having said that, I would like to say "Great job coming up with this idea!" to Linguist.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the looks of this. Two seers plus apprentice is ridiculously strong but not overpowered against two nightkills, I think.

Reminds me of Oh My.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Does the tinker also scramble sorcerer views?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
linguistfromhell wrote:
ChickenSedan wrote:
Does the tinker also scramble sorcerer views?


Is that normal for Tinkers? I as under the impression they simply gave false positives to Seers?

I hadn't considered having the Tinker give an 'always positive' answer to night views. If that is the norm, someone, please let me know. If it's not, then I think I'm fine with the Tinker not coming up positive for the Sorcerer. Evil has got a decent challenge as things stand.


I thought it was, but I don't have much more experience than you do.

It would solve your tinker reveal D1 issue. It could also help evil? If the sorc claims seer with a wolf hit on the tinker, he could sway the village.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Mnar
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Minion reveals N1, gives wolves public kill orders, including contingencies for revealed seers [e.g. alphabetical order, see Avin in Oh My/Oh Hell No as evil]

Is Minion lynched D2? If so, that's 6 free kills the wolves have got for a loss of no parity. That's a third of the village.

That leaves 3+1:12, excluding D1 lynch, which is extremely pressuring to the village.

--

I think the Minion sacrificing himself is the best play - while it's nice to have people to steer the lynch away from wolves and to counterclaim, the benefits of having kill priorities set up are vast - in a 1 team game, they prevent crosskills.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Mnar
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
It's significantly harder to coordinate F2F than online. I think giving the wolves a wolf cub certainly avoids the D1 reveal, but the first evil to go down gives coordination to the pack. After the first evil goes down, you're guaranteed 3 kills a night, and the later this happens, the more evil benefit.

There are a lot of goods, though, so it's not implausible that they could come out on top - I think online testing would be more reliable than F2F, because it will definitely favour good in F2F [alphabetical order or seating order priority? Confusion can be caused that way]
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Mnar
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Like this.

I don't think the permanent bodyguard resolution is a viable one - it existing when 3 seers are in the game means that it necessarily stops 2 NKs. If a seer reveals with a hit, both remaining wolves need to NK the seer to kill them. If a second seer gets a hit, the seer cannot die the first night and gets another view. It's unlikely that all the seers will avoid the NK, but not implausible.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LippyJ wrote:
Minion reveals N1, gives wolves public kill orders, including contingencies for revealed seers [e.g. alphabetical order, see Avin in Oh My/Oh Hell No as evil]

Is Minion lynched D2? If so, that's 6 free kills the wolves have got for a loss of no parity. That's a third of the village.

That leaves 3+1:12, excluding D1 lynch, which is extremely pressuring to the village.

--

I think the Minion sacrificing himself is the best play - while it's nice to have people to steer the lynch away from wolves and to counterclaim, the benefits of having kill priorities set up are vast - in a 1 team game, they prevent crosskills.



OR You could make it so there's no talking at night.

And in order to balance the game towards evil a little, you could give one of the wolves a brutal or tough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Woll
United States
Toledo
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The open coordinating works for good as well. I know if I'm good the first thing I will say is "The seer whose name is closer to the front of the alphabet begin viewing alphabetically from the beginning and the seer whose name is closer to the end of the alphabet begin viewing alphabetically from the end."

I think this would also really be hard for a sorc (or any evil) trying to counter-claim seer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't like turning the martyr into a BG. The BG would just be too powerful here, I think.

No talking at night might even things out enough for it to not matter. Then the Minion/Cultist can't talk about NK orders. And also one of the wolves can't say "I'm the brutal one, kill me tonight so I can brutal our seer!" or something ridiculous like that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
linguistfromhell wrote:
Shushnik wrote:

Have you run this through the balance formula? If so, where does it sit?


The what? No idea what you're talking about. Besides, does the balance formula even allow for multiple NKs?

Yes. It can be found here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/81173/reccommended-werewolf-...

I have never been able to figure it out myself so I always use the Ultimate WW cards to help determine things.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To be honest, that balance calculator was created after five months of BGG werewolf, when people were worried about games favouring the village heavily. We've had six-and-a-half years of games since then, and the good:evil victory rate is something like 52:48. I think some of its assumptions are questionable (one wolf per ten players?) just as some of the UWUE values are.

I've never managed to use the web version either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BlackSheep wrote:
To be honest, that balance calculator was created after five months of BGG werewolf, when people were worried about games favouring the village heavily. We've had six-and-a-half years of games since then, and the good:evil victory rate is something like 52:48. I think some of its assumptions are questionable (one wolf per ten players?) just as some of the UWUE values are.

I've never managed to use the web version either.


+100.

The only balance rule I usually use is that good should have a number of mislynches equal to the number of wolves present. After that, it's just a matter of adjusting things until it seems right. Fun games don't have to be balanced, after all.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mandiekinz
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
Professor Xavier convinced Katniss to leave her home at 221B Baker Street. She jumped into the Impala shouting, "Allons-y!" .....
badge
.... to take The Ring down the yellow brick road, all through the black of the 'verse, to Narnia, to shine like a star, while saving the Enterprise from the Six-fingered Slytherin Sith.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, as I said, I just use the numbers on the Ultimate WW cards and then take into account the fact that it's played online, so wolves can chat during the day freely and at night (thus giving evil a huge edge).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
violintides wrote:
Well, as I said, I just use the numbers on the Ultimate WW cards and then take into account the fact that it's played online, so wolves can chat during the day freely and at night (thus giving evil a huge edge).


Having a full record of every word spoken and every vote made is a huge boon for good, mind.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Wilson
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:
The only balance rule I usually use is that good should have a number of mislynches equal to the number of wolves present. After that, it's just a matter of adjusting things until it seems right.


Yeah, I think starting with rules-of-thumb like 'about one mislynch per wolf' and 'at least one-third villagers' is a good way to handle things

BlackSheep wrote:
(one wolf per ten players?)


To be fair, I think what the calculator does is undervalue the standard villager and overvalue the good specials, since they were the problem Jared was concerned about. It probably works about right for middle-sized games with a sensible number of specials, but scales oddly outside that. I thik the P11 was originally balanced using that calculator for example.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dake Jimson
United States
Billerica
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Why's the sky blue? Why's water wet?
badge
Why did Judas rat to Romans while Jesus slept?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shushnik wrote:
LippyJ wrote:
It's significantly harder to coordinate F2F than online. I think giving the wolves a wolf cub certainly avoids the D1 reveal, but the first evil to go down gives coordination to the pack. After the first evil goes down, you're guaranteed 3 kills a night, and the later this happens, the more evil benefit.

There are a lot of goods, though, so it's not implausible that they could come out on top - I think online testing would be more reliable than F2F, because it will definitely favour good in F2F [alphabetical order or seating order priority? Confusion can be caused that way]


One way to combat coordination would be to make the martyr a bodyguard. That way, coordination would cost the wolves 1 NK if your BG hadn't been killed yet.


yes i was going to say, change the martyr to a BG, and i think you could run with it and see how it goes. sounds interesting.

i'm no balance expert though. i'd like to hear what some salty vets think.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dake Jimson
United States
Billerica
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Why's the sky blue? Why's water wet?
badge
Why did Judas rat to Romans while Jesus slept?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
To be honest, that balance calculator was created after five months of BGG werewolf, when people were worried about games favouring the village heavily. We've had six-and-a-half years of games since then, and the good:evil victory rate is something like 52:48. I think some of its assumptions are questionable (one wolf per ten players?) just as some of the UWUE values are.

I've never managed to use the web version either.


+100.

The only balance rule I usually use is that good should have a number of mislynches equal to the number of wolves present. After that, it's just a matter of adjusting things until it seems right. Fun games don't have to be balanced, after all.


i had never thought of it this way. that makes sense and is remarkably simple. i love that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dake Jimson
United States
Billerica
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Why's the sky blue? Why's water wet?
badge
Why did Judas rat to Romans while Jesus slept?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
maybe a BG and a squire? where the squire becomes a BG when he views the BG or he promotes when the BG dies. something like that maybe. something to mitigate the sheer number of NKs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.