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Subject: The BJ Lillo Memorial Thread rss

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Drew1365 wrote:
hskrfn822 wrote:
The only people mourning BJ's ban are RSP fanatics that can't seem to understand that he evaded a ban, whether intentional or unintentional.


Or, you know, his friends.


If a friend of mine broke the rules of a website and got banned for it, I'd blame my friend and bitch him out for ruining a good thing.

I can understand folks being disappointed, especially those that consider him a friend, but it's because of your friendship that you are biased. Moderation, when necessary, HAS to be done evenhandedly with no bias or conflict of interest. I personally prefer open venues where I can speak without need for censorship and restraint, but that's why I go to sites with much looser rules, if any, for RSP related subjects. I'm horrible at biting my tongue and do value my user account enough to not risk losing it. When I've been banned, I eat humble pie and do my time.
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I'd just like to remind everyone that accusing someone of committing a rules violation is itself a rules violation. I'm skirting the rule myself by even mentioning it in this context. If any of you notice anyone making the claim that another user has violated the rules, I urge you to follow BGG policy and use the red X.

If, however, the point being made is that our policies exist for the good of the site and constitute a pernicious influence if they are applied even when they do not serve that goal, I think it was masterfully executed and marvelously subtle. The idea of deliberately violating one's own rules in order to put oneself in a position to have to give oneself a lighter punishment than is normally assigned due to the role one plays on the site as a way of creating a precedent for giving someone a lighter punishment than is normally assigned due to the role they play on the site would be, well, pretty freaking awesome and a delightfully humble move.

Mostly, though, I'm just so impressed by my own wit that I'm intellectually masturbating here. I've been watching the BBC's Sherlock, and it has a strange effect on me.
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I remember that guy. He's the one who maliciously parked in USDA inspectors' parking spaces. What a trouble maker.
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DWTripp wrote:
hskrfn822 wrote:
Apparently everyone's taken for granted the fact that RSP is a privilege.


BS.

BGG is privileged to have users, not the other way around. This is a site that uses its members as a consumer base for it's advertisers to sell shit to. The "social aspects" are just the wrapping in order for Aldie, Monin and the entourage of paid staffers to use so they can turn a buck.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm a capitalist myself. But it's no more a privilege to use BGG than it is to buy a Chevy or a hamburger. The "reality" is that BGG wants to control it's user base and losing several thousand bucks a year from people like me (and a few hundred others I know of) who have ceased donating and refuse to click on ads must be meaningless. Which means there's a lot more money being made here than most people would imagine.

BGG owes it's users, we don't owe these guys anything. They need us or they'll have to go back to writing tiny blocks of code for games that are never released or working in some lab buried in a university basement somewhere.


If you truly feel that way, then why did you return? BGG's terms are on the table for all to see and if you don't like them, you're not obliged to use the site. I understand your point. There is some merit to it, but the userbase are not slaves. Nobody is chained to their PC, forced to contribute. They do so because they get something out of it and enough of something to keep coming back. BGG owes you nothing. You get out of it what you can or will. Just as others have done, if you feel you're putting more into the site than you're getting in return, you know what your options are, but the users are hardly the proletariat to the Admin and Mod's bourgeoisie. Save your peasant revolt for a more appropriate time.
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rinelk wrote:
I'd just like to remind everyone that accusing someone of committing a rules violation is itself a rules violation. I'm skirting the rule myself by even mentioning it in this context. If any of you notice anyone making the claim that another user has violated the rules, I urge you to follow BGG policy and use the red X.

If, however, the point being made is that our policies exist for the good of the site and constitute a pernicious influence if they are applied even when they do not serve that goal, I think it was masterfully executed and marvelously subtle. The idea of deliberately violating one's own rules in order to put oneself in a position to have to give oneself a lighter punishment than is normally assigned due to the role one plays on the site as a way of creating a precedent for giving someone a lighter punishment than is normally assigned due to the role they play on the site would be, well, pretty freaking awesome and a delightfully humble move.

Mostly, though, I'm just so impressed by my own wit that I'm intellectually masturbating here. I've been watching the BBC's Sherlock, and it has a strange effect on me.


Yeah. Who watches the Watchmen?

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whac3 wrote:


To allay this concern, can you say of the last 10 permanently banned users whose ban involved RSP activity, how many were roughly conservatives and how many liberals? If the numbers do in fact indicate a marked disparity, can it be addressed in some manner?


I can only think of two people total who fall under this category: BJ, and Koldfoot, who did the same thing last night.

Koldfoot's was obvious - his alt username was Coldfoot and he was upset about the suspension he had just received.

In BJ's case, I saw a post from "chidler" and thought "oh shit...Chiddler is back. Again". I thought this was strange considering Chiddler had just deleted an account recently, so I checked the user information we had on this one and I discovered it belonged to BJ.

As an aside, Koldfoot's "crime of passion" is one where I would be more inclined to show some leniency as it was done in the heat of the moment.

If either BJ or Brian want to contact me, they can reach me at (Contact@boardgamegeek.com).

-MMM
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DWTripp wrote:
hskrfn822 wrote:
Apparently everyone's taken for granted the fact that RSP is a privilege.


BS.

BGG is privileged to have users, not the other way around. This is a site that uses its members as a consumer base for it's advertisers to sell shit to. The "social aspects" are just the wrapping in order for Aldie, Monin and the entourage of paid staffers to use so they can turn a buck.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm a capitalist myself. But it's no more a privilege to use BGG than it is to buy a Chevy or a hamburger. The "reality" is that BGG wants to control it's user base and losing several thousand bucks a year from people like me (and a few hundred others I know of) who have ceased donating and refuse to click on ads must be meaningless. Which means there's a lot more money being made here than most people would imagine.

BGG owes it's users, we don't owe these guys anything. They need us or they'll have to go back to writing tiny blocks of code for games that are never released or working in some lab buried in a university basement somewhere.


Just to clarify, I was referring to RSP being a privilege, not BGG in general. The creators of a board game site didn't have to give you your own little nook and cranny on the site. They could have just banned RSP subjects altogether.
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Drew1365 wrote:


Was Brian permabanned, too?


His account has been indefinitely suspended for the same reason, yes.
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This is all my fault. I forced BJ to make that account. I held a fucking gun to his head, and I MADE HIM DO IT.

It is not his fault.
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Octavian wrote:
whac3 wrote:


To allay this concern, can you say of the last 10 permanently banned users whose ban involved RSP activity, how many were roughly conservatives and how many liberals? If the numbers do in fact indicate a marked disparity, can it be addressed in some manner?


I can only think of two people total who fall under this category: BJ, and Koldfoot, who did the same thing last night.

Koldfoot's was obvious - his alt username was Coldfoot and he was upset about the suspension he had just received.

In BJ's case, I saw a post from "chidler" and thought "oh shit...Chiddler is back. Again". I thought this was strange considering Chiddler had just deleted an account recently, so I checked the user information we had on this one and I discovered it belonged to BJ.

As an aside, Koldfoot's "crime of passion" is one where I would be more inclined to show some leniency as it was done in the heat of the moment.

If either BJ or Brian want to contact me, they can reach me at (Contact@boardgamegeek.com).

-MMM

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?
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hskrfn822 wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
hskrfn822 wrote:
Apparently everyone's taken for granted the fact that RSP is a privilege.


BS.

BGG is privileged to have users, not the other way around. This is a site that uses its members as a consumer base for it's advertisers to sell shit to. The "social aspects" are just the wrapping in order for Aldie, Monin and the entourage of paid staffers to use so they can turn a buck.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm a capitalist myself. But it's no more a privilege to use BGG than it is to buy a Chevy or a hamburger. The "reality" is that BGG wants to control it's user base and losing several thousand bucks a year from people like me (and a few hundred others I know of) who have ceased donating and refuse to click on ads must be meaningless. Which means there's a lot more money being made here than most people would imagine.

BGG owes it's users, we don't owe these guys anything. They need us or they'll have to go back to writing tiny blocks of code for games that are never released or working in some lab buried in a university basement somewhere.


If you truly feel that way, then why did you return? BGG's terms are on the table for all to see and if you don't like them, you're not obliged to use the site. I understand your point. There is some merit to it, but the userbase are not slaves. Nobody is chained to their PC, forced to contribute. They do so because they get something out of it and enough of something to keep coming back. BGG owes you nothing. You get out of it what you can or will. Just as others have done, if you feel you're putting more into the site than you're getting in return, you know what your options are, but the users are hardly the proletariat to the Admin and Mod's bourgeoisie. Save your peasant revolt for a more appropriate time.


I never went anywhere, I used BGG for close to 3 years before opening an account here. And there is more than some merit to a web site user base being a product. I sure hope you don't make your living in marketing. All "lists" are products and lists were valuable products bought and sold long before AlGore created the internet. You can get anything you want from any site on the internet and never be a product for them to sell or be sold to. So joining up and becoming known makes them the privileged ones, not the other way around.

As for putting anything into the site, I put zip into this site. No money, no reviews, no uploaded content and I refuse to click on a single ad. BGG earned the right to have me as a "customer" until the current Moderation Regime took over. Then they lost it because they took me (and my value) for granted. When they start doing a good job again, if they ever do, I'll allow them to make some more money off of me. Until then, I don't even buy games from their advertisers.

Oh, and if you actually "demeaned" me by using a passive/aggressive attack... peasant revolt... please be warned - passive/aggressive attacks are actionable in the ever-changing world of BGG moderation and if enough people flag you or if somebody up there feels it was a guideline violation - YOU WILL BE MODERATED!!!!!

And you get to pay for that as well. Yay.
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49xjohn wrote:

This is all my fault. I forced BJ to make that account. I held a fucking gun to his head, and I MADE HIM DO IT.

It is not his fault.

What if that water-pistol had gone off, mister?
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whac3 wrote:

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?


This is the only violation that results in indefinite suspensions. All others are temporary.

-MMM
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hskrfn822 wrote:

Just to clarify, I was referring to RSP being a privilege, not BGG in general. The creators of a board game site didn't have to give you your own little nook and cranny on the site. They could have just banned RSP subjects altogether.


Okay. Nothing changes though. RSP, Chit Chat and the rest didn't originally exist and were created specifically to retain users. That's not a privilege, it's a feature. If BGG didn't have RSP I'd rarely post at all and just return to checking here now and again for new games, rules clarifications, etc.

My point remains - any business is privileged to have customers. Moreso if their business is selling the actual customers to other businesses.
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Octavian wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?


This is the only violation that results in indefinite suspensions. All others are temporary.

-MMM

Has a self-identified liberal then ever been permanently banned for this type of violation? It would seem surprising if none had ever before done such a thing.
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whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?


This is the only violation that results in indefinite suspensions. All others are temporary.

-MMM

Has a self-identified liberal then ever been permanently banned for this type of violation? It would seem surprising if none had ever before done such a thing.


Probably. I don't know the political leanings of people outside of RSP, generally, and this really isn't a very common occurrence. For it to happen twice in a day in the same thread is both crazy and sad.
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Octavian wrote:


For it to happen twice in a day in the same thread is both crazy and sad.


So are you like, you know, personally sad about all this? And what kind of sad are you? Like, "Ah coul' see the train a'comin but they was trapped in the car!" sad? Or more like, "Well, I hated ta do it to him, but ya know, sum folks just need killin'" sad?

It must make you feel crazy to be sad about things you had no control over.
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whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?


This is the only violation that results in indefinite suspensions. All others are temporary.

-MMM

Has a self-identified liberal then ever been permanently banned for this type of violation? It would seem surprising if none had ever before done such a thing.
Why all the questioning about an action with such a small sample space? Plus, if you DID happen to find that more orange people than purple people were being indefinitely suspended, that could mean that, a) you don't have enough data, b) an outlying statistic was seen, or c) orange people are bigger pricks than purple people.

I don't see what you expect to find with this line of questioning, Tailgunner Joe. :)
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Drew1365 wrote:

Well, at least you have your principles! That's got to be some sort of comfort!

Although . . . I'm not exactly sure how.


It's always extremely difficult for the least principled among us to empathize with the most principled among us. Or so I'm told.
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Randy Cox wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Admittedly I was not asking about only this one specific violation type. Both BJ and Koldie are/were self-identified conservatives. Have any self-identified Liberals been permanently banned for RSP activity in say the last year?


This is the only violation that results in indefinite suspensions. All others are temporary.

-MMM

Has a self-identified liberal then ever been permanently banned for this type of violation? It would seem surprising if none had ever before done such a thing.
Why all the questioning about an action with such a small sample space? Plus, if you DID happen to find that more orange people than purple people were being indefinitely suspended, that could mean that, a) you don't have enough data, b) an outlying statistic was seen, or c) orange people are bigger pricks than purple people.

I don't see what you expect to find with this line of questioning, Tailgunner Joe. :)


The perceived persecution of conservatives through imbalanced moderation has been an ongoing issue in RSP. While this may seem oddly specific for the incident it is relevant in the grand scheme of things.
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The Message wrote:

The perceived persecution of conservatives through imbalanced moderation has been an ongoing issue in RSP. While this may seem oddly specific for the incident it is relevant in the grand scheme of things.

But is there any evidence for it?
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Holy crap, being an admin on this site must be hilarious.

Seems like it was just last week there was some flap in the wargaming forum where the admins (including Octavian) were accused of inconsistent moderation because, uhh... a thread was locked, but not by the wargaming admin... or one thread was locked but another thread wasn't, thereby "proving" that the admins hate wargamers. (Oh yeah, then one of them was given grief for tipping me a bunch of gold for a comment I maybe shouldn't have made, and he had to apologize to everyone for it!)

So, this week, with the vapors of that baffling shit-storm still drifting through their nostrils, they must be hyper-vigilant about fair, even-handed, unemotional application of the rules... and then two users they don't want to ban, blatantly do things which are clearly bannable offenses. They're fucked.

...

As their lawyer, I advise them to un-ban Koldfoot & bjlillo, and we all agree to never speak of this again. (And at next BGG.CON, each of us here gets one free shot at punching Brian & BJ in the nuts for being so goddamn stupid.) And from now on, the admins give up on trying to apply rules fairly, and switch to a formal policy of that's right; fuck you.

"The only possible way to interpret this is that you hate wargamers!" "That's right; fuck you."

"The admins here have a blatant Satanist bias!" "That's right; fuck you."

"You let Koldfoot & bjlillo come back, so it's not fair for you to perma-ban me!" "That's right; fuck you."

I think this gives us the best possible results. People who never break the rules will never be affected by the new policy; people who want to feel like they're the victims of an organized campaign of persecution really can; and, most importantly, I'll once again be free to earn massive rewards for borderline comments. (Oh yeah, and the admins will never again have to explain themselves to people who are going to shit on them anyway.) This is one of those rare opportunities which are truly win-win, people.
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DWTripp wrote:
Octavian wrote:


For it to happen twice in a day in the same thread is both crazy and sad.


So are you like, you know, personally sad about all this? And what kind of sad are you? Like, "Ah coul' see the train a'comin but they was trapped in the car!" sad? Or more like, "Well, I hated ta do it to him, but ya know, sum folks just need killin'" sad?

It must make you feel crazy to be sad about things you had no control over.


? Of course he's sad, and of course he feels trapped. I suspect this day sucked for him more than for Koldie or BJ. However biased you think he is, how can you think he doesn't care about this job (as if it were just a job) or the BGG community? We collectively had a bad day yesterday.
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49xjohn wrote:

This is all my fault. I forced BJ to make that account. I held a fucking gun to his head, and I MADE HIM DO IT.

It is not his fault.


I paid for the avatar. Suspend me too!
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