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Subject: The BJ Lillo Memorial Thread rss

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David C
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Christopher Hitchens in regards to being called a drunk:

'because I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem.'

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Randy Cox
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Drew1365 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Wait. You're saying he should play favorites when doing his job?

I'm saying that zero-tolerance policies are quite often unjust, and exist only to provide cover for people who make bad decisions.
Or provide support to those who must make unpopular decisions.
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Drew1365 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Wait. You're saying he should play favorites when doing his job?

I'm saying that zero-tolerance policies are quite often unjust, and exist only to provide cover for people who make bad decisions.

When the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
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Mike Jones
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David C
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I find myself agreeing with Drew (and DWTripp) way more than I would like here.

EDIT: added tripp.
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Jeff Jones
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whac3 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
These are friendships that may very well be damaged now.

I don't think there's a question about that.

But it was worth it, right? Screwing over your so-called friends for the sake of some imaginary internet principle?

Friendships, real people, real lives, . . . these come and go but the dignity of the internet must be maintained!
Wait. You're saying he should play favorites when doing his job?

Only for conservatives. I think that's his point.

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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Drew1365 wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Wait. You're saying he should play favorites when doing his job?

I'm saying that zero-tolerance policies are quite often unjust, and exist only to provide cover for people who make bad decisions.
Or provide support to those who must make unpopular decisions.

Because of zero-tolerance policies in schools, we've seen straight-A students get expelled for having an aspirin tablet. The stories along these lines are legion.

Zero-tolerance policies allow no flexibility, and do not differentiate between good people who sometimes make mistakes, and the truly disruptive and dangerous.

Zero-tolerance policies have little to do with justice. People who follow them deny themselves the important virtue of discretion. They are unnecessarily absolutist, and create a moral void where all judgment is lacking.

Zero-tolerance policies free decision-makers from having to take responsibility for their actions -- a perfect fit for the post-modern "collectivist" mentality.

You had me until you decided to make this about the collectivism. "Zero-tolerance policies" are not inherently a right or left thing.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Drew1365 wrote:
gittes wrote:
You had me until you decided to make this about the collectivism. "Zero-tolerance policies" are not inherently a right or left thing.

I didn't ascribe collectivism to a particular political stance, although it is fairly common on the left. The point is that collectivism frees the individual from taking responsibility for his actions.

Consider mob mentality, "we were only following orders," or even relatively benign examples like the dreaded "group project" where we all rise or fall together. Under collectivism, there are also no individual faults or errors. But there are also no individual achievements to be celebrated. Most importantly to the topic, poor decisions can get blamed on bureaucracy.

Thanks for the response Drew and I can see your point. The flip side is taking individual responsibility to the point of "zero-tolerance" as in the many laws against rather petty crimes or declarations about how being unemployed or out-sourced is "your fault and your fault alone."

Beware the absolutists.
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If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
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Don't flick the hemophiliacs here! They have the power to NUKE YOU should a discoloration form!!!

Great place.

Remember when BGG was filled with colorful characters that brightened your day with their wit and depth and insight and stories...?

What tastes like cardboard around here?

I used to come here for the database and the people. Now that most of the interesting folk have left or been driven out, well... it's an amazing database.

I smell Lysol. The walls are very clean here. And there are people that love staring at featureless, repetitive sterility. How can we get more of THOSE people here?!
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CHAPEL
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joebelanger wrote:

I used to come here for the database and the people. Now that most of the interesting folk have left or been driven out, well... it's an amazing database.



And what we are left with is the Feel the Love people. *Shivers*
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MWChapel wrote:
joebelanger wrote:

I used to come here for the database and the people. Now that most of the interesting folk have left or been driven out, well... it's an amazing database.



And what we are left with is the Feel the Love people. *Shivers*

Don't EVER say that!
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Randy Cox
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Drew1365 wrote:
Because of zero-tolerance policies in schools, we've seen straight-A students get expelled...Zero-tolerance policies allow no flexibility, and do not differentiate between good people who sometimes make mistakes, and the truly disruptive and dangerous.
If we were to look at BGG as a school, I don't think those who hang out here would be considered the straight-A crowd. More like the Sweathogs.
Quote:
Zero-tolerance policies free decision-makers from having to take responsibility for their actions -- a perfect fit for the post-modern "collectivist" mentality.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Paul Sauberer
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Fwing wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
It was never meant to get around any site rules

But that's how it was used.
You pays your money you takes your chance.
/shrug.

I would only say that it was used to get around the rules if the sock puppet account was used in order to enable the suspended user to keep posting his own views. It would then be an attempt to keep posting their own views.

The chidler account almost certainly would have appeared (at that time) whether BJ was suspended or not. It wasn't really a sock puppet account representing BJ's views. It was an attempt at humor.

The moderation ended up using the death penalty without taking context and mitigating factors into consideration. That's why the problem is with the moderation system here. The proper reaction would have been to recognize that and revise the rules instead of cling to them like Holy Scripture and not learn from the experience. The reason for the poorly constructed rule got lost in the zeal to use it.
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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joebelanger wrote:
Don't flick the hemophiliacs here! They have the power to NUKE YOU should a discoloration form!!!

Great place.

Remember when BGG was filled with colorful characters that brightened your day with their wit and depth and insight and stories...?

What tastes like cardboard around here?

I used to come here for the database and the people. Now that most of the interesting folk have left or been driven out, well... it's an amazing database.

I smell Lysol. The walls are very clean here. And there are people that love staring at featureless, repetitive sterility. How can we get more of THOSE people here?!

So what happened? Back when Barnes (I assume that is when this began) was banned I was just posting and discussing stuff with the other wargamers.

Anyway, who the hell wants people to "feel the love?"
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Dave G
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Psauberer wrote:
Fwing wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
It was never meant to get around any site rules

But that's how it was used.
You pays your money you takes your chance.
/shrug.

I would only say that it was used to get around the rules if the sock puppet account was used in order to enable the suspended user to keep posting his own views. It would then be an attempt to keep posting their own views.

The chidler account almost certainly would have appeared (at that time) whether BJ was suspended or not. It wasn't really a sock puppet account representing BJ's views. It was an attempt at humor.

The moderation ended up using the death penalty without taking context and mitigating factors into consideration. That's why the problem is with the moderation system here. The proper reaction would have been to recognize that and revise the rules instead of cling to them like Holy Scripture and not learn from the experience. The reason for the poorly constructed rule got lost in the zeal to use it.

For that matter, I am not a big Koldfoot fan but I would say his case falls in a similar gray area. He was upset and wanted to know what happened. I think a geekmail letting him know that using a sock puppet even just to ask why the original account was suspended is against the rule, and asking him to delete the post and the sock puppet account would have been more than sufficient.
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Paul Sauberer
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
Fwing wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
It was never meant to get around any site rules

But that's how it was used.
You pays your money you takes your chance.
/shrug.

I would only say that it was used to get around the rules if the sock puppet account was used in order to enable the suspended user to keep posting his own views. It would then be an attempt to keep posting their own views.

The chidler account almost certainly would have appeared (at that time) whether BJ was suspended or not. It wasn't really a sock puppet account representing BJ's views. It was an attempt at humor.

The moderation ended up using the death penalty without taking context and mitigating factors into consideration. That's why the problem is with the moderation system here. The proper reaction would have been to recognize that and revise the rules instead of cling to them like Holy Scripture and not learn from the experience. The reason for the poorly constructed rule got lost in the zeal to use it.

For that matter, I am not a big Koldfoot fan but I would say his case falls in a similar gray area. He was upset and wanted to know what happened. I think a geekmail letting him know that using a sock puppet even just to ask why the original account was suspended is against the rule, and asking him to delete the post and the sock puppet account would have been more than sufficient.

That's your mistake, right there.
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Dave G
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Drew1365 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
I think a geekmail letting him know that using a sock puppet even just to ask why the original account was suspended is against the rule, and asking him to delete the post and the sock puppet account would have been more than sufficient.

As I'm sure you know, all you get is an automated "You have been suspended" message from the admin collective with a link to the offending post, and you often have to write back and ask for an explanation of the rule you allegedly broke.

And that explains Brian's use of the sock puppet, asking for an explanation.

Exactly. I've usually chosen to blast Matthew via geekmail, but if Koldfoot either didn't realize he could still use geekmail his approach makes perfect sense.
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Wait....two people were suspended for breaking the rules? Shocking!
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Dispaminite wrote:
Wait....two people were suspended for breaking the rules? Shocking!

But they didn't break the spirit of the rules, which apparently doesn't count for anything at all.
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Nice going, BJ...
He was a slob.
Did you ever see him eat?
Starving children could fiill their bellies on the food that ended up on his beard and clothes.
Dogs would gather to watch him eat.
I never understood gluttony. But I hate it. I hated that about him.
He enjoyed disgusting people, being disgusting, the thrill of offending people and making them uncomfortable.
He was despicable.
He will not be missed.
I'm very sorry.
More champagne!

Spoiler (click to reveal)
5gg to the nerd who can reference this. Post below, but message me if you think you are correct, I might not return to this love fest.


For the record - I agree with Octavian on the sock puppet use as a rule. It is pretty clear cut. However, I probably won't agree with why they were banned in the first place. That is extremely subjective by users that click the X and the admin. What was it?
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The Message wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Wait....two people were suspended for breaking the rules? Shocking!

But they didn't break the spirit of the rules, which apparently doesn't count for anything at all.

Given that they were already under suspension for breaking the rules, I have to wonder about how much they care about the spirit of the rules.
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Sorry, BJ. I did enjoy reading your stuff even if I disagreed with virtually all of it.

As a side note, I stopped donating money to BGG after the site starting banning people. That was in '07 with Barnes.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
These are friendships that may very well be damaged now.

I don't think there's a question about that.

But it was worth it, right? Screwing over your so-called friends for the sake of some imaginary internet principle?

Friendships, real people, real lives, . . . these come and go but the dignity of the internet must be maintained!

Is there some reason to believe that the people who find abuse unwelcome are unreal? My guess is that the policy protects more of us than it offends. How many people never get involved in RSP because they're afraid someone might treat them as Chiddler (however deservedly) was treated? It might comfort some of them to know that such behavior gets one temporarily banned, but creating another account specifically to continue the bullying while suspended leaves the impression of that protection in tatters.

If we can keep RSP an appealing place for boardgamers to talk about R, S, and P, we benefit lots of people at the expense of a few. Ignoring the benefits to the many who prefer that it not be a total free-fire zone simply because they aren't obviously identified in this thread seems pretty narrow.
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Clay
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Dispaminite wrote:
The Message wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Wait....two people were suspended for breaking the rules? Shocking!

But they didn't break the spirit of the rules, which apparently doesn't count for anything at all.

Given that they were already under suspension for breaking the rules, I have to wonder about how much they care about the spirit of the rules.

If only we had someone whose job it was to care about the spirit of the rules for them.
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The Message wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
The Message wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
Wait....two people were suspended for breaking the rules? Shocking!

But they didn't break the spirit of the rules, which apparently doesn't count for anything at all.

Given that they were already under suspension for breaking the rules, I have to wonder about how much they care about the spirit of the rules.

If only we had someone whose job it was to care about the spirit of the rules for them.

It seems to me the spirit of the rule is not to post when your suspended.
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