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Subject: On the nature of the RSP forum and a proposal rss

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Moshe Callen
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While this thread is indeed inspired by the current situation being discussed in the Complaints Department, the intent of this thread is markedly different I believe.

As a former teacher (since before grad school I taught high school) I was often sent into classrooms when the previous teacher had left because of being overwhelmed. So I am familiar with what happens when a group has its rules changed and the unfortunate fact tat the person enforcing the newer rules is in a lose-lose situation even if he does his best to enforce those rules fairly. Therein I think lies the core of current discontent; the rules here in RSP have been changed to conform with those of the rest of BGG as a whole and some of us who have been here throughout the process are disgruntled about it.

So, in practical terms, what can be done? I see two options:

1. "Suck it up and adapt to the new rules." This is the implicit suggestion being made currently and it's not workign for everyone.

2. Keep the current RSP as is but create a new place as well.

For the second approach, there is a group on Facebook that anyone interested may join; please contact me about it if interested.

Unfortunately that requires joining and a FB account. To me, it's fun but just not the same.

As it has evolved RSP has become a place of two tiers. There are the threads in which mostly regulars but in principle anyone on BGG come to discuss more or less in a civilized manner potentially contentious subjects and those threads moved to RSP or even initially start in RSP at the other tier where discussion has simply gotten out of hand.

Therefore I propose the following but need comfirmation that this is allowed:

For threads of the first tier, I propose the creation of a new forum. Call it say "Contentious Issues". Make it a regular part of BGG visual to all members of BGG. However to post in that forum one mustjoin itlike a guild and agree to no moderation except for 1. no spamming the board and 2. no explicitly racist posts. Suspensons for violations would be suspensions from that forum only and for a set non-incremental amount of time.

The current RSP would remain for threads which have gone off the rails. People could still post in it etc. The only difference is that it is subject to full moderation by the usual BGG standards.

The forum propsed could be blocked by users who do not want to see it and would be invisible to non-members of BGG. It would not be a guild because this would make the place effectively disappear but anyone posting in it must explicitly agree to an effectively unmoderated forum.

What do non-admin people and Aldie/Octavian/admins think?
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I say, burn it to the ground and never look back.
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We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM
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Moshe Callen
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pronoblem wrote:
I say, burn it to the ground and never look back.

Pronoblem;

As so often happens, I can tell you're making a meaningful comment and have a real point but you express yourself in ways that make your actual intent unclear to me.
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Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.
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Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


A friend of mine has stated that he finds it odd that BGG allows any posting that is not games related. He says that (I have no idea if this is true) that the lead adventures forum allow no posting that are off topic.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.


Why do we need a no hilds barred forum? Moreover if its no holds barred then no holds should be barred. Why say allow someone to be offensive about gingers but not aboout blacks?
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slatersteven wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


A friend of mine has stated that he finds it odd that BGG allows any posting that is not games related. He says that (I have no idea if this is true) that the lead adventures forum allow no posting that are off topic.

I fear that's the way this seems inevitably to be goingbut it will be a great shame if it does. BGG's RSP (the first tier) is a great forum with a long list of advantages I'll not list here.
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whac3 wrote:
no moderation except for 1. no spamming the board and 2. no explicitly racist posts


Why single out racist posts only for moderation? What about, say, homophobic posts? Or sexist posts? Or posts that promote violence? Etc, etc.

FWIW, I think the moderation policies here are pretty reasonable.

And because I like polls:

Poll
1. Are the moderation policies:
Too strict?
About right?
Too lenient?
2. Is enforcement of the moderation policies:
Excellent
Good
OK
Bad
Terrible
3. Is enforcement of the moderation policies:
Mostly inconsistent
Mostly consistent
4. How many times have you been suspended?
0
1
2
3
4
5+
5. Is there political bias evident in moderation?
Yes
No
6. Should moderation be:
Transparent
Private
      122 answers
Poll created by col_w
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.


Why do we need a no hilds barred forum? Moreover if its no holds barred then no holds should be barred. Why say allow someone to be offensive about gingers but not aboout blacks?

To be clear, I like moderation. I think usually it's a good thing. Yet it seems at the root of the issue. So I'm trying to negotiate a solution. Since a no-holds barred forum has been ruled out above, your question is moot. Apparently that's not on the table. I'm now trying to find soemthing else that is still potentially on the table.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


A friend of mine has stated that he finds it odd that BGG allows any posting that is not games related. He says that (I have no idea if this is true) that the lead adventures forum allow no posting that are off topic.

I fear that's the way this seems inevitably to be goingbut it will be a great shame if it does. BGG's RSP (the first tier) is a great forum with a long list of advantages I'll not list here.


But if people were not offensive rude and insluting this woould not matter. Yes sometimes I feel that moderation is a bit heavy handed, but I also know that there are something you shuld not do and say. If you cannoy understand simple rules like, dont call other users names, don't sock puppet to avoid bans then I really have no sympathy for you.
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Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Sure, this is not officially a politics site.

But unofficially IMHO the RSP is the best politics site I've found. You can have a (mostly) mature discussion here.

So thanks for this oddball corner of the BGG
goo


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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.


Why do we need a no hilds barred forum? Moreover if its no holds barred then no holds should be barred. Why say allow someone to be offensive about gingers but not aboout blacks?

To be clear, I like moderation. I think usually it's a good thing. Yet it seems at the root of the issue. So I'm trying to negotiate a solution. Since a no-holds barred forum has been ruled out above, your question is moot. Apparently that's not on the table. I'm now trying to find soemthing else that is still potentially on the table.


Such as? less moderation...Am I allowed to discuse my blocks?
 
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Octavian wrote:
This is not a politics site.


QFT.
 
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tesuji wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Sure, this is not officially a politics site.

But unofficially IMHO the RSP is the best politics site I've found. You can have a (mostly) mature discussion here.

So thanks for this oddball corner of the BGG
:goo:




That I think is the key here, mature. The problom is that sometimes (and I think this come from both sides) the responses are not mature.
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.


Why do we need a no hilds barred forum? Moreover if its no holds barred then no holds should be barred. Why say allow someone to be offensive about gingers but not aboout blacks?

To be clear, I like moderation. I think usually it's a good thing. Yet it seems at the root of the issue. So I'm trying to negotiate a solution. Since a no-holds barred forum has been ruled out above, your question is moot. Apparently that's not on the table. I'm now trying to find soemthing else that is still potentially on the table.


Such as? less moderation...Am I allowed to discuse my blocks?

With all due respect, you're belaboring an irrelevant point and this is coming off as simply harrassment. If you don't think this is an issue, then I invite you to not participate. I'd b happy if it weren't an issue either but to many of my internet buddies here on BGG it really is an issue.
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I can understand if a games site don't want all this R, S and P, so I'd be happy to come here for games only, and take my contentious discussions elsewhere, as long as that place has enough board gamers. It's very easy to start a forum; there are plenty of free services. I'd prefer that to FBRSP.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM

Octavian;

In many ways, I regard myself as a problem-solver. When faced with a situation, I naturally seek to find solutions-- innovative ones if need be.

I'm trying to find something that you and Aldie would be fine with but which would also satisfy the unhappy RSP regulars so we can essentially deal with the growing discontent and move on.


If no-holds-barred is too much, could there be a middle ground? I'm not trying to badger nor complain but to frankly fix a growing problem that inteferes with RSP which is frankly my favorite hang-out on the site, a place to relax between reviews etc.


Why do we need a no hilds barred forum? Moreover if its no holds barred then no holds should be barred. Why say allow someone to be offensive about gingers but not aboout blacks?

To be clear, I like moderation. I think usually it's a good thing. Yet it seems at the root of the issue. So I'm trying to negotiate a solution. Since a no-holds barred forum has been ruled out above, your question is moot. Apparently that's not on the table. I'm now trying to find soemthing else that is still potentially on the table.


Such as? less moderation...Am I allowed to discuse my blocks?

With all due respect, you're belaboring an irrelevant point and this is coming off as simply harrassment. If you don't think this is an issue, then I invite you to not participate. I'd b happy if it weren't an issue either but to many of my internet buddies here on BGG it really is an issue.


With all due repect if you raise an issue I will comment on it. When I meant less moderation I did not mean no holes barred, what I meant was that admins would operate a less inflexible poplicy and rather then blocks (for examlple) would just delete an offending post. I assume you do actualy want to discuse alterantive ideas? Not wishijng to be rude but if your buddies here on BGG knew hoe to behave in polite society this would not be an issue.
 
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Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


Your only problem with this stance is that you could lose donor monies from people who frequent these forums.

But if you've decided that the possible income from donors who frequent RSP isn't worth the hassle, well, that's your guys' call.

I know that the primary reason I go to BGG.Con, for instance, is to meet other RSP'ers. If RSP were to go down in flames, I would probably not just stop posting here, but also reconsider attending BGG.Con at all.

But I'm just one dude. You guys have to decide what is best for the overall site.

Darilian
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Mondainai wrote:
I can understand if a games site don't want all this R, S and P, so I'd be happy to come here for games only, and take my contentious discussions elsewhere, as long as that place has enough board gamers. It's very easy to start a forum; there are plenty of free services. I'd prefer that to FBRSP.

Fair enough.

Although I usually disagree with you, you're still welcome to rejoin the FBRSP group should you ever change your mind.
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Darilian wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


Your only problem with this stance is that you could lose donor monies from people who frequent these forums.

But if you've decided that the possible income from donors who frequent RSP isn't worth the hassle, well, that's your guys' call.

I know that the primary reason I go to BGG.Con, for instance, is to meet other RSP'ers. If RSP were to go down in flames, I would probably not just stop posting here, but also reconsider attending BGG.Con at all.

But I'm just one dude. You guys have to decide what is best for the overall site.

Darilian


You have the germ of an idea there, for minor infringmetns why not a GG fine (graded by degree of offence) with blocks only occoour if the user does not wish (or cannot pay) the fine?
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Darilian wrote:
Octavian wrote:
We have discussed and summarily rejected the idea of a no-holds-barred forum of any kind.

RSP only exists because we feel having a quarantine zone is better than not having it, but we wouldn't mind one bit if it didn't see any traffic. This is not a politics site.

-MMM


Your only problem with this stance is that you could lose donor monies from people who frequent these forums.

But if you've decided that the possible income from donors who frequent RSP isn't worth the hassle, well, that's your guys' call.



Quite often, decisions are made that are short-term thinking and not long-term thinking.

Understandably, the admin/ownership is concerned with what would happen when new members join BGG for the first time; happen upon RSP and think, "oh my God!" and bail, never to return.

Conversely, as I've said before - BGG may have started as a database, but it's evolved/(devolved?) into a vibrant social community. As communities become more social, its natural for the members to explore other interests. I've long said you'd have to search pretty far to find a collective group of intelligent members like what's here on BGG - even if I don't always agree with all the views.

I'm mature (?) enough to know that opinions are opinions. None of us is a congressman or anyone with enough power to enact his/her views. If member one says he doesn't want his child to experience the internet or TV until he's 18, what can I do? His opinion; whether I agree or not (if, on the other hand, member one said he beats his child every day, to teach him discipline, I'm more likely to ensure the member is reported to authorities - I don't really give a crap if he's suspended from BGG).

Why not simply enable to landing page for RSP, so that all who enter are above the age of 18 -- the landing page should explain that all the conversation will be of an adult nature - controversial, and (almost certainly) profanity-laced.

Or, just get rid of ALL forums; clearly, moderation isn't working. It's way too easy to flag things and (apparently) people are happier when others are banned (as compared to just blocking them - which is still something I don't see the value in; but whateva...) If the only 'interaction' would be comments and game-related forums (rules, reviews, session reports), you'd eliminate these problems - I mean, what percentage of infractions come from within the game forums? 5? 3?

And, you'll lose a lot of the chrome that makes BGG the #1 destination for most users; but you won't be banning people any longer.

Basically, the site encourages intelligent discussion and social interaction; you can't have your cake and eat it too.
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This subject is tiresome, and really isn't in our ability as users to influence- its really up to Aldie and Derk.

Let me just say that I think that Lemur understands that the big picture issue behind this, and the banning of Mike Barnes, and all of that, is the issue of the database vs. the social media aspect of this site.

Ultimately, Aldie and Derk are going to have decide which side of the issue provides more, and constant, revenue- the social media side, or the database.

And its an open question. BGGCon could grow to be a huge revenue provider, but will attendance grow because of the access to the game Library and the new titles from Essen, or because they want to hang out with cool people that they met in the forums of BGG?

Thats the big $10,000 question that I don't have an answer for. To my eye, BGG.Con is the best means by which Aldie and Derk can monetize the eyeballs that come here and get off of a donor model. The questions that they're going to need to figure out are why do people attend BGG.Con and why do people donate to BGG.COM?.

My personal opinion is that Aldie and Derk should go towards more of a social media approach, and then franchise out 'mini' BGG.Cons for people who want to have the BGG.Con experience in their region. I think that this would be the best way for them to move beyond relying on a donor based business model.

But that's just me.

Darilian
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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whac3 wrote:
2. no explicitly racist posts.


I can attest that you will get a 'damn-neart ban' for a 'damn-neart racist' post.
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pronoblem wrote:
I say, burn it to the ground and never look back.


nuke it from orbit it's the only way to be sure.

as an irrelevant aside, I used to find RSP reasonably entertaining
but it certainly is becoming more and more tedious.

When did all the rules lawyers migrate here?




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