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Subject: Identifying rules-bending combos rss

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Jeff Wolfe
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I'm interested in identifying the card combinations in Dominion and the expansions which are particularly esoteric or rules-bending. A simple example would be the Mint/Grand Market thing. More complex examples involve cards like Inn, Watchtower, Border Village, and Trader.

Is there a list out there already somewhere (or more than one)? Especially of interest are rulings from Donald that extend beyond the rulebooks. I vaguely remember somebody putting together a list of those rulings somewhere. Stuff that is answered by the rulebooks is also of interest if it's particularly weird.

If anybody could provide links or examples, that would be great. Even if it means quoting me back to me.

Thanks.

Edit to add this clarification:
I am not looking for powerful combos, just ones that make you stop and think about how they need to be resolved under the rules.
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David Goldfarb
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Don't know of any lists offhand, but if you're going to talk about rules-bending cards and combos you have to mention Black Market; no other card lets you play Treasure cards during your Action phase, and this leads to all sorts of oddness.
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Mark Judd
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jeffwolfe wrote:
I'm interested in identifying the card combinations in Dominion and the expansions which are particularly esoteric or rules-bending. A simple example would be the Mint/Grand Market thing. More complex examples involve cards like Inn, Watchtower, Border Village, and Trader.
...

What is the "Mint/Grand Market" thing? Buying a Mint with $11+, 2 buys, and Copper in play to trash the Copper and use the second buy for Grand Market? Or possibly buying a Mint from the Black Market deck with Copper in play and buying a Grand Market with your regular buy?
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Jeff Dunford
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Matt E
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iNano78 wrote:

You should read the top post before responding. The OP is looking for rules-bending combos, not strong combos.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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LastFootnote wrote:
iNano78 wrote:

You should read the top post before responding. The OP is looking for rules-bending combos, not strong combos.


I assure you I read the top post before responding. Perhaps I just don't understand the request made in the top post. The link I provided includes several combos that border on game-breaking (e.g. Black Market/Tactician is listed at #11; Talisman/Watchtower/Treasure Map is #19). I'm unaware of any combos (or lists thereof) that absolutely break the game.
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The Broox
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iNano78 wrote:
I'm unaware of any combos (or lists thereof) that absolutely break the game.


King’s Court/Goons/Masquerade is the closest thing to game breaking I can think of.

As for odd ruling contained in the rulebooks, the final sentence in the FAQ entry for Duchess reads:

Quote:
Duchess does not interact in any special way with the promotional card Black Market.
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Jeff Dunford
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The Broox wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
I'm unaware of any combos (or lists thereof) that absolutely break the game.


King’s Court/Goons/Masquerade is the closest thing to game breaking I can think of.


And that's #24 at the link I provided above.
 
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Jeremy Volk
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Not sure if you are specifically looking for game-breakingly powerful combos, but there was a huge discussion about the results of Ironworks/Trader, in which Donald changed his mind at least once.
 
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Matt E
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BaconSnake wrote:
Not sure if you are specifically looking for game-breakingly powerful combos, but there was a huge discussion about the results of Ironworks/Trader, in which Donald changed his mind at least once.

Yeah, I was the one who initially asked about that one. Good times.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/716619/ironworks-and-trader
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David Goldfarb
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Yes, you get a second Mint. No, you do not get to put either of them on top of your deck (buying the Mint trashes your Royal Seal, so the on-gain effect doesn't happen).
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Jeff Wolfe
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LastFootnote wrote:
BaconSnake wrote:
Not sure if you are specifically looking for game-breakingly powerful combos, but there was a huge discussion about the results of Ironworks/Trader, in which Donald changed his mind at least once.

Yeah, I was the one who initially asked about that one. Good times.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/716619/ironworks-and-trader

This is an excellent example of what I am looking for.

To be clear: I am not looking for powerful combos, just ones that make you stop and think about how they need to be resolved under the rules. I think I'll go add that sentence to the OP.
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Pater Absurdus
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The Broox wrote:
iNano78 wrote:
I'm unaware of any combos (or lists thereof) that absolutely break the game.


King’s Court/Goons/Masquerade is the closest thing to game breaking I can think of.

As for odd ruling contained in the rulebooks, the final sentence in the FAQ entry for Duchess reads:

Quote:
Duchess does not interact in any special way with the promotional card Black Market.


Goons is the only card so far that I wish didn't exist and to me this is a bit broken. It doesn't come up frequently but still...

Also Goons can allow such a huge point grab in such a weird way e to other cards and the regular way in which VP's are gained. The VP tokens should have become their own kingdom deck and been limited. That is my humble and off topic opinion. Thank you for your patience with that break from your regularly scheduled programming... ninja
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Roberta Yang
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Goons isn't even needed for the pin; you can substitute Militia or Ghost Ship and it still works. It's hardly fair to blame this on Goons.
 
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The reason Goons is generally chosen is minimal necessary expansions (you can do the pin with just Intrigue and Prosperity, meaning if you own just those two boxes it can actually come up reasonably often), and also Goons lets you gain indefinite points until you win, stopping the need for you to grab extra VPs while you end the game.

Lots of decks with actions that gain cards plus Watchtower can get somewhat weird, at least to think about. It's not really rule bending, but gaining engine components onto your deck, drawing them, using them to gain more engine components onto your deck and draw them and use the to... it's a bit weird and crazy.

Also a rules question that was made here recently, about Black Market and Trader. Buy a card from BM. Reveal Trader. Return that bought card to the top of the BM deck? It's perfectly logical of course, but a bit weird.
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Jesse Gainsburg
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Another confusing one I saw was with Embargo and Trader. There are two embargo tokens on copper with 1 curse left. I buy a copper, can I get two curses? Or just one? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.0

Also, Haggler + Black Market. Which effect gets resolved first? It is nearly certainly a closed case, but still confusing.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1929.0

Tunnel + Chancellor, for sure.

The Aforementioned Ironworks/Trader shenanigans.

Lastly, and most confusing for me, is cleaning up TR'ed or KC'ed durations. KC on Tactician or Outpost. How many KC's go away in a huge chain of KC'ed wharves? Stuff like that.

There are surely more, these are just the first few I could think of.
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Gerald Katz
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Throne Room/Scheme gives you a net two actions a turn, every turn, as long as you always put both back on top of your deck during Clean Up.

King's Court/Scheme is a net +1 card, three actions every turn.

Golem Engine is nice. Have any number of Golems (G), only two Attack Actions cards (A). and one action that gives +1 action (+1). The rest is Money.

If your hand has G, guaranteed to play at least one A from G.
If your hand has G and +1, play G to guaranteed play both A.
If you hand has G and A, guaranteed to play both A because Golem will hit +1 to allow you to play A from hand.
If you hand as G, A, A, can only play one A. If +1 is instead one of the Villages, then you can always play both A.

You're cycling through your deck a lot. You need a lot of Gold. Buy Tunnels! Getting enough Gold unfortunately doesn't happen fast enough all the time. Those attacks need to be powerful. Goons works great since you'll care more about chip points, but Margrave is nice since you get to draw more cards. Militia and Ghost Ship are fine. Lots of Golems and Minions is interesting. Curse attacks aren't so great because eventually the Curses run out, but Golem -> Torturer -> Torturer might delay your opponent long enough.


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Throne Room or King's Court applied to cards with a "while this is in play" clause. The ones I can think of are (Throne Room, King's Court) applied to (Goons, Highway, Princess), but there may be others. Nobody ever gets that right the first time around.

Black Market and Ambassador. What happens when you Ambassador a card that you bought from the Black Market.


(BTW, it's sad how many people misread the OP and present powerful combos, not combos that make the rules act weird.)
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Brandon Irvine
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ftl_ftw wrote:
(BTW, it's sad how many people misread the OP and present powerful combos, not combos that make the rules act weird.)


This. And, for my own bit on the confusing combos that the OP was looking for:

ftl_ftw wrote:
Throne Room or King's Court applied to cards with a "while this is in play" clause. The ones I can think of are (Throne Room, King's Court) applied to (Goons, Highway, Princess), but there may be others. Nobody ever gets that right the first time around.


And then Scheme kind of confused this for me, since after I understood this point about Goons et al., I was surprised that a single Scheme (at least as implemented on Isotropic) can be played multiple times to multiple its effect (using Throne Room or King's Court).

This creates a whole new category of thing (number of actions you may return to the deck) that you need to keep track of and apply later (like number of buys or actions).
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Dave Goldthorpe
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Possession and Outpost turn sequences are particularly confusing and I suspect a lot of players haven't even tried to learn the rules. I certainly haven't.

The use of king's court and thrones on duration cards has received a number of rulings from Donald I think. There was the issue of throne x throne x wharf, wharf and how many thrones stayed on the table. There was also some question of whether throne x outpost (or tactician) left the throne on the table applied to the outpost.

Applying thrones to cards that trash themselves (mining village) seems to attract rules queries even though they're covered in the rules.

Donald has also made some rulings about shuffling, looking at the discard pile, discarding cards, revealing cards, giving information to other players (about last turn for smugglers say), and so on. There's nothing here that goes beyond common sense and courtesy but they could perhaps be put together to convince the most stubborn rule mules.
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ToughJuicePech0 wrote:
Also, Haggler + Black Market. Which effect gets resolved first? It is nearly certainly a closed case, but still confusing.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1929.0
I don't see what the problem here is...the Black Market lets you buy a card, which is precisely when Haggler's effect gets resolved. Like with Smugglers (and probably other cards, that's just the first one off the top of my head), it can only gain cards from the supply, which does not include any of the 3 cards BM turns over. And anyway, the confusion in that thread seems to be whether you can take from the BM-revealed cards, not the order in which Haggler's and BM's effects are resolved...

ftl_ftw wrote:
Throne Room or King's Court applied to cards with a "while this is in play" clause. The ones I can think of are (Throne Room, King's Court) applied to (Goons, Highway, Princess), but there may be others. Nobody ever gets that right the first time around.

Haggler. I really hope that there is eventually some reason for that wording other than "it becomes way too powerful with King's Court."

edit so this isn't a double post:
Back when the Prosperity cards were revealed, I asked about Ironworks/Watchtower interaction. Specifically, if you use an Ironworks to gain an Island (or any Action/Victory), and you want to reveal Watchtower, you reveal it before getting IW's bonus; so it's (1) play Ironworks (2) gain Island (3) reveal WT, topdeck Island (4) +1 Card/+1 Action from IW, so you end up with the Island in hand.

Not super difficult to grasp but a little odd at first encounter, and involves the subtleties of timing in Dominion.

Also TR/KC and self-trashers; why Embargo and Feast work, but Mining Village doesn't.
 
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Stephen Roney
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One that came up today was what happens when Young Witch comes up in the Black Market. Do you add a Bane at that time or play without?

In our case, he had five coin + Black Market on turn three, so, after THINKING about Young Witch, he bought the Forge and crushed me.

 
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Chris White
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sroney wrote:
One that came up today was what happens when Young Witch comes up in the Black Market. Do you add a Bane at that time or play without?

In our case, he had five coin + Black Market on turn three, so, after THINKING about Young Witch, he bought the Forge and crushed me.



If Young Witch is in the Black Market deck, you add the Bane card before you start play. Even if it ends up at the bottom and nobody ever sees it, you end up playing with 11 Kingdom cards anyway.

Similarly, you put out the Trade Route mat and tokens if Trade Route is in the Black Market deck, whether or not it ever gets bought.
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Greg Pratt
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DaveGold wrote:
Possession and Outpost turn sequences are particularly confusing and I suspect a lot of players haven't even tried to learn the rules. I certainly haven't.


I started a discussion on some of the muddier points of outpost and possession used together here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6914315#6914315

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Nick Knutsen
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jeffwolfe wrote:
Is there a list out there already somewhere (or more than one)? Especially of interest are rulings from Donald that extend beyond the rulebooks. I vaguely remember somebody putting together a list of those rulings somewhere. Stuff that is answered by the rulebooks is also of interest if it's particularly weird.


You're probably thinking about the Complete and All-Encompassing Dominion FAQ which I put together. Its aim is to have all rulings from Donald, with links to the rulings. It's also linked to from the main Dominion page on BGG.
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