There is no Dana, only Zuul
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-15-2012/seawo...


While entertaining because the PeTA rep gets owned pretty hard by her own tactics, the 13th amendment doesn't explicitly state that it's referring to people. Should it have to?

Quote:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
—from the Fourteenth Amendment.
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いい竹やぶだ!

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sisteray wrote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
—from the Fourteenth Amendment.

Does that include US territorial waters?
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sisteray wrote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
—from the Fourteenth Amendment.


But my doggie is a person!!!!!!!



I swear, everytime I hear that in Austin as an excuse by someone to try and allow their pooch to eat in the restaurant, I just want to strangle them.

Texas is not France!!!!

Dogs are great, but they don't eat at the table.

Darilian
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Thank you for this. I haven't lolled in a while now. The bit at the end where she has a dog and his response to it w/r/t house [slaves] vs field [slaves] is the very best part.
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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europae vincendarum
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The preamble starts - "We the people...."
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Oh, my lord was that worth the time to watch. I was too busy to watch that episode when it aired and man am I sorry I missed it.
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The definitions of the subject are always covered in any legal style document including this one. It's a load of rubbish.
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We already had one conversation about upholding the spirit of a rule rather than the letter, can't we just leave it at that?
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chaendlmaier wrote:
Well, the dairy cow is bred to give milk.
The chicken is bred to give eggs.
The hog is bred to be slaughtered.


After the cow has stopped giving milk and the chicken has stopped giving eggs, they are also slaughtered. It's just too bad that pigs don't have a food product they produce which can prolong their lives, like Peel 'n Eat Bacon.
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Darilian wrote:
sisteray wrote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
—from the Fourteenth Amendment.


But my doggie is a person!!!!!!!



I swear, everytime I hear that in Austin as an excuse by someone to try and allow their pooch to eat in the restaurant, I just want to strangle them.

Texas is not France!!!!

Dogs are great, but they don't eat at the table.

Darilian
Whatever gives you the idea dogs are allowed in restaurants in France?
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Well, horses, snails and frogs are allowed, although admittedly only as part of the main course.
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chaendlmaier wrote:

I don't understand vegans or animal rights activists who hold pets. It doesn't frustrate me or anything, I just think it's stupid and contradictory. At worst it's a case of "but my animal is different!". (On my aunt's farm all the cows had names and were slaughtered regardless.) I'm not vegan because I love animals, but because I find the industrialized fabrication of meat and other animal products sickening and (in its current extent) it's massively harmful to the environment.


I can understand your thinking when it comes to Vegan's who go to breeders for pets, but for many it's just a small-scale rescue. Most of us don't have the means to own farm-level real estate where we can shelter larger rescued animals, but can contribute to easing suffering by adopting unwanted pets from a local pound or shelter. That doesn't mean we aren't anti-pet. I personally feel that all domesticated animals should be sterilized and then cared for for the remainder of their lifespans in a non-cruel fashion. If I could shelter a cow, I would. In-need cats and dogs are relatively easy to care for. Though, we do (my family) give money to farm shelters also to help animals rescued from brutal agriculture. In no case would we support any agency that breeds animals for consumption, either as pets or as food.

I agree with you, I don't love animals in general, just like I don't love people in general. Though I can on an individual basis. For the most part I am passive in my Veganism in that I avoid causing suffering, but I don't go out of my way to try and prevent others from causing suffering, other than the occasional contribution to various agencies trying to enact animal-welfare legislation.

And to the Daily Show's point, we don't make our cats pick cotton, they are free to leave if they want and actually we did have one leave last year and never return. Of course he was fixed, so wherever he may roam, he won't be contributing to the problem, other than maybe taking out a song bird or two.
 
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Forced sterilization? Seems cruel to me.
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quozl wrote:
Forced sterilization? Seems cruel to me.


A minor surgical procedure. But, to your point, let's just say it's "less cruel" then letting them procreate. It's an exit path from animal domestication with the least amount of suffering.
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TheChin! wrote:
quozl wrote:
Forced sterilization? Seems cruel to me.


A minor surgical procedure. But, to your point, let's just say it's "less cruel" then letting them procreate. It's an exit path from animal domestication with the least amount of suffering.


How is procreation cruel? I've seen animals do it and they seem to enjoy it quite a bit.
 
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quozl wrote:
Forced sterilization? Seems cruel to me.

Well, reality is cruel. Allowing a pet to impregnate or become impregnated without taking responsibility for the consequences seems like cruelty to me. I don't mean to suggest you would do any such thing.
 
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What is being done to prevent your cat's cruelty to those poor birds? Or natural cruelty, in general. I mean... clearly living in a house and getting three squares a day, plus unlimited cuddle time is way worse than being able to roam free and eventually get picked off by something higher up the food chain. I'm just sayin.
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twixter wrote:
quozl wrote:
Forced sterilization? Seems cruel to me.

Well, reality is cruel. Allowing a pet to impregnate or become impregnated without taking responsibility for the consequences seems like cruelty to me. I don't mean to suggest you would do any such thing.


How am I responsible for an animal's choices?
 
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ejmowrer wrote:
What is being done to prevent your cat's cruelty to those poor birds? Or natural cruelty, in general. I mean... clearly living in a house and getting three squares a day, plus unlimited cuddle time is way worse than being able to roam free and eventually get picked off by something higher up the food chain. I'm just sayin.


I'm not really concerned about natural cruelty as it is pretty much programmed into the ecosystem. Human cruelty is different as humans can decide not to be cruel and still live healthy happy lives. Animals, for the most part that we know of, don't know about cruelty as a decision making variable. That humans recognize cruelty and its consequences and still choose to be cruel for non-essential reasons is what bothers me.

Obviously my cat had all those things you mentioned and he still decided to run off, or came to an untimely end himself. Both things I didn't force on him. There was a point in time that I did not allow my cats out of the house. I still have mixed feelings about it. The advantages and disadvantages tipped to letting them out over the years, but it still isn't a clear cut decision.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
What is being done to prevent your cat's cruelty to those poor birds? Or natural cruelty, in general. I mean... clearly living in a house and getting three squares a day, plus unlimited cuddle time is way worse than being able to roam free and eventually get picked off by something higher up the food chain. I'm just sayin.


I'm not really concerned about natural cruelty as it is pretty much programmed into the ecosystem. Human cruelty is different as humans can decide not to be cruel and still live healthy happy lives. Animals, for the most part that we know of, don't know about cruelty as a decision making variable. That humans recognize cruelty and its consequences and still choose to be cruel for non-essential reasons is what bothers me.

Obviously my cat had all those things you mentioned and he still decided to run off, or came to an untimely end himself. Both things I didn't force on him. There was a point in time that I did not allow my cats out of the house. I still have mixed feelings about it. The advantages and disadvantages tipped to letting them out over the years, but it still isn't a clear cut decision.


Maybe I don't know where you stand, exactly. Do you think that free range, organic beef is acceptable? I can give you my support on that much. I just can't support that idea that no animals should be eaten for food, or worse, domesticated at all.
 
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quozl wrote:
How am I responsible for an animal's choices?


For the most part animals don't choose, they act. Since we, as a society, keep them in unnatural environments for our convenience, we are responsible for their actions. Since we have bred them to the point, in many cases, where they can't be successful in "natural" environments, we not only are responsible for what they've become, but we are also responsible for what actions they take.

If you were the person/organization that released rabbits into Australia, would you be responsible for their damages or would the rabbits? If you own a pit bull that you have trained to fight other pit bulls and it gets loose and kills a child, who is responsible the pit bull or you?
 
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TheChin! wrote:
quozl wrote:
How am I responsible for an animal's choices?


For the most part animals don't choose, they act. Since we, as a society, keep them in unnatural environments for our convenience, we are responsible for their actions. Since we have bred them to the point, in many cases, where they can't be successful in "natural" environments, we not only are responsible for what they've become, but we are also responsible for what actions they take.

If you were the person/organization that released rabbits into Australia, would you be responsible for their damages or would the rabbits? If you own a pit bull that you have trained to fight other pit bulls and it gets loose and kills a child, who is responsible the pit bull or you?


I'm just the person who raises and eats them.
 
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ejmowrer wrote:
Maybe I don't know where you stand, exactly. Do you think that free range, organic beef is acceptable? I can give you my support on that much. I just can't support that idea that no animals should be eaten for food, or worse, domesticated at all.


I realize that domesticated animals have had an important place in human history. I don't think they are necessary anymore and the practice is unnecessarily cruel, in some cases excessively so (factory farms) and in others arguably so (so-called free range operations). Any time a feeling being is commodified and sold, suffering is involved. I can't see a way around it, so I support full prohibition.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
Maybe I don't know where you stand, exactly. Do you think that free range, organic beef is acceptable? I can give you my support on that much. I just can't support that idea that no animals should be eaten for food, or worse, domesticated at all.


I realize that domesticated animals have had an important place in human history. I don't think they are necessary anymore and the practice is unnecessarily cruel, in some cases excessively so (factory farms) and in others arguably so (so-called free range operations). Any time a feeling being is commodified and sold, suffering is involved. I can't see a way around it, so I support full prohibition.


Veganism is unnecessarily cruel on me. Besides, I'm not at all convinced a free range cow is worse off than a wild cow getting taken down in the prime of his life at the watering hole by an alligator or croc. Because we are thinking beings and understand cruelty, we should be able to be more humane (the root of which is not lost on me) than an alligator when we breed, slaughter, and consume our cows.
 
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