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K G
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And thus another new SSU announcement from FFG : http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3126

Again , I am not pleased .

The SSU is revealing itself to be THE army to play .

I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .

Sniper squads with 2 sniper rifles . With 2 guns with a presumed range of 6 , who cares if it doesn’t have a spotter ?

Infantry squads with 2 heavy weapons , including one with 2 sniper rifles . And before some one points to the death dealers , or the hell boys , let me remind you that those units are ONLY available in the “revised” starter , where as the SSU units are available soon as single squad packs , so the SSU units will be more heavily armed since they don’t have less heavily armed more basic squads announced .

Aircraft , air mobile troops , airmobile WALKERS . So for at least 3 months , the SSU will not only have the ONLY official aircraft , but soon they will be able to fly in walkers to flank opponents .

Hero pilots . Again , having the only ones officially in the game for 3+ months is a big disappointment

Commissar squads . There is no equivalent in the allies or axis , we don’t get heros that can form a squad , that looks to have 3 heavy weapons .



Comparing unit for unit of what the announced SSU units have , there is no real fair equal equivalent in the other 2 armies , its power creep .

And before some one points to the SSU’s lack of heavy walkers , light walkers , and armor 3 infantry , we should all be VERY happy about that , because based on the SSU units announced so far , when the SSU gets A3 infantry , heavy walkers , etc ….. , they will have twice the potential weapons load , and be airmobile .

There is a substantial lack of parity between the SSU units , and those the axis and allies players spent so much money buying to build OUR forces . I attribute some of this to some screwy marketing team with undue influence over the product line , and partially to the fact that the SSU was so long in coming out that they jumpstarted its power building to over balance it quickly . This would suggest that as beastly as the SSU looks , when the vrill come out , they will be even more ridiculously powered up , because they will have even MORE to try and catch up with .

There is a misconception that just assigning a points value to a unit , and having the same points values per side , makes things fair , but there comes a point with some weapons and units where even a higher points value doesn’t really balance a game , and can leave the door open to broken units and army builds .

The way the SSU is developing , its doesn’t really seem like the soviet flavor that many would have expected , I know none oof us here feel they have a soviet flavor . They seem very much like a superior armed force , not the hard fighting poorly equipped , tough fighting units we here had expected .
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James Palmer
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Sweet! More Dust Tactics stuff! Thanks for the heads up!
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Felkor wrote:
Sweet! More Dust Tactics stuff! Thanks for the heads up!


Fighting fire with fire, Pelkor? I like it!

I just wanna get my hands on the new Axis walkers surprise . They look SWEET.
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Robert Wyant
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I will wait and see, We still haven't seen the costs of these units.
I am still very Happy with my Axis and have no plans to change. Hit us with your best shot ssu, The Fatherland will prevail!
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Thiago Aranha
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VERY cool new updates. Thanks for the heads-up!


PS: I wouldn't trade the Spotter for a second Sniper in a million years. The best thing about the Sniper squads is pairing a hero with them and watching their attack become MUCH more effective.

PPS: Being different is not power creep. Being more powerful is power creep. Since we haven't seen the stats or played with these guys yet, we don't know how powerful they are. I for one love that the SSU feels so different from the other 2 factions. Let them have their choppers, it's just more stuff to shoot down.
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Scott M.
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.
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atraangelis wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.


Dude, don't listen to Kris. Even if FFG did exactly what he wanted, he would find something to grouse about. The power-creep in Dust Tactics is really not noticeable.


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Matt Shinners
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braveheart101 wrote:
atraangelis wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.


Dude, don't listen to Kris. Even if FFG did exactly what he wanted, he would find something to grouse about. The power-creep in Dust Tactics is really not noticeable.


He's not just listening to Kris - he says that he's been watching DT and has seen the power creep himself. A more detailed rebuttal might help change that belief.
 
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K G
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braveheart101 wrote:
atraangelis wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.


Dude, don't listen to Kris. Even if FFG did exactly what he wanted, he would find something to grouse about. The power-creep in Dust Tactics is really not noticeable.




ahhh even , if only you had a clue , and remembered back to when i used to be one of the voices argueing FOR the direction the game was going , and sticking up FOR what FFG was doing .......... granted , its been a while , but there was a time when i looked at the direction this was going , and was happy with it , now , not so much ........
 
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K G
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Loophole Master wrote:
VERY cool new updates. Thanks for the heads-up!


PS: I wouldn't trade the Spotter for a second Sniper in a million years. The best thing about the Sniper squads is pairing a hero with them and watching their attack become MUCH more effective.


or having 5 SSU sniper squads , with 5 commissars , and 2 sniper rifles each with more than 4 range 3 of which gain an extra heavy weapon to boot ?


Loophole Master wrote:

PPS: Being different is not power creep. Being more powerful is power creep. Since we haven't seen the stats or played with these guys yet, we don't know how powerful they are. I for one love that the SSU feels so different from the other 2 factions. Let them have their choppers, it's just more stuff to shoot down.


even if their heavy MG only rolls 3 dice , i would LOVE to have a squad with 2 .

the only real saving grace here is that me and my gorup dont use the "new points system" , so we dont stand to be as ganked as the official points system would make it .

lets not forget that chambers " new points system" considers heavy MG's and sniper rifles to be cheap weapons since they dont kill tanks .

and we all better load up on those AA walkers , since they now threaten to flood the boards for those that can afford them . the last thing you will want is a chopper getting through with a walker in towe .

its starting to look like some of the 40K games i see now where the tables are flooded with flyers . one of the local 40K players brings a box each week with 8 or 10 of them for his imperial guard , its sad to watch when he plays them , for there is no joy in mudville . if this is the direction the game is going , then i see alot of potential players staying away , because its all been done before in WH40K , and they have the recovering addicts to prove it .
 
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
or having 5 SSU sniper squads , with 5 commissars , and 2 sniper rifles each with more than 4 range 3 of which gain an extra heavy weapon to boot ?

No idea what you're on about there...


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
even if their heavy MG only rolls 3 dice , i would LOVE to have a squad with 2.

Great! What are you complaining about, then?


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
the only real saving grace here is that me and my gorup dont use the "new points system" , so we dont stand to be as ganked as the official points system would make it .

shake snore Honestly, don't you ever get tired of banging on that same note over and over again? You don't even KNOW the AP cost of these units and you're already saying they're wrong!


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
its starting to look like some of the 40K games i see now where the tables are flooded with flyers . one of the local 40K players brings a box each week with 8 or 10 of them for his imperial guard , its sad to watch when he plays them , for there is no joy in mudville.

You do realize you always have the option of NOT playing with the douchebag who spams a single type of unit, right? No game, no matter how perfect, will be fun to play with a douchebag.
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K G
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Loophole Master wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
or having 5 SSU sniper squads , with 5 commissars , and 2 sniper rifles each with more than 4 range 3 of which gain an extra heavy weapon to boot ?

No idea what you're on about there...

read up on the commissar squad , its a squad that can be split up and used as heros for individual squads , and 3 of the figs look to have heavy weapons . get 5 sniper squads , add in a commissar hero to each , and you get a squad with 2 sniper rifles , that will have a range of greater than 4 , and a hero with a special ability and or a heavy weapon .


Loophole Master wrote:

GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
even if their heavy MG only rolls 3 dice , i would LOVE to have a squad with 2.

Great! What are you complaining about, then?

simple fact is , the only regular squads that allies or axis players can use that have 2 heavies , and are available to purchase individually are the tank killing squads , the SSU looks to be getting a heavy dose of units with 2 heavy weapons , that they can buy off the shelf . it may not make as big a deal to you , since and your group have to order it special , but here , where players can just pick and choose from what ever squads are available on the shelf , it makes a difference when some one can go grab a unit off the shelf and have it to play NOW , not wait for it to arrive in the mail.

it also effects perspective players impressions when they see whats on the shelf , and find out one army is getting a major boost or has a major advantage that the others dont .


Loophole Master wrote:

GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
the only real saving grace here is that me and my group dont use the "new points system" , so we dont stand to be as ganked as the official points system would make it .

shake snore Honestly, don't you ever get tired of banging on that same note over and over again? You don't even KNOW the AP cost of these units and you're already saying they're wrong!


well , i guess if i didn't look at the "NPS" values of the other units already out there ..... and if it wasnt confirmed by the likes of people like "duncan idaho" and others on other message boards , when they explain that the reason the NPS makes anti tank units more powerfull than anti infantry units is because "tanks need to be protected" then maybe i could see your point , but since there is plenty of corroborating EVIDENCE as to what the likely points levels for these ANTI INFANTRY units will be based around , can you see where this is headed ?

its kinda like the konigsluthor vs the punisher . there is no way it can logically be argued that the konigsluthor is worth on 5 points less than the punisher , when their main guns are not drastically different , and the punisher is loaded with MG's and abilities that make it drastically more threatening .


Loophole Master wrote:

GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
its starting to look like some of the 40K games i see now where the tables are flooded with flyer's . one of the local 40K players brings a box each week with 8 or 10 of them for his imperial guard , its sad to watch when he plays them , for there is no joy in mudville.

You do realize you always have the option of NOT playing with the douchebag who spams a single type of unit, right? No game, no matter how perfect, will be fun to play with a douchebag.


you are right , i dont have to play them , but there are only 2 outcomes to watching such a game : wow that was cool , i want to do the exact same thing , OR that was retarded , why would i want to play that game ?

and lets keep in mind that alot of people have said they only have one friend or so who plays , you may recall a thread a short time ago , here on BGG , where some one pointed to their friend ALWAYS playing the zombies , and always getting crushed by the zombie units . now substitute a swarm of choppers and air mobile units for zombies , i have no doubt we will see similar threads arise of just such a nature . i am fortunate that i have a Small group of rotating regular players , but also get in pick up games against other people outside my group . not every one is so lucky .

additionally , its easy to point to WH40K as an example , because they are the largest fish in the pond , but this type of player becomes a problem with any minis based or similar game , as they grow . right now DT is still very small by comparisson , but as it grows ................

and it threatens the new player base , when a "suitcase general" like the guy with the flyers has the money to spend the $600 JUST on his flyers , PLUS the money for the troops that deploy out of them .

 
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Dave Smith
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Sigh, off again on a one-man hate campaign. Sometimes you are right Kris, but you can't trash a release until you know the facts instead of guessing and assuming SSU are all-poweful. I'm looking forward to trying out the SSU as they have different units and different tactics to employ - can't see a problem with them.
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The last time, you had an uproar over the fact that the Allies didn't have any anti-air capabilities to speak of to defend against the new aircraft.

Then 2 weeks later... behold: a new allies anti-air unit is announced.

Can we please learn from past mistakes and WAIT until we have stats or, you know, the RULES for the new units before talking about game balance?

You're talking about the SSU being overpowered when we don't know a thing about their aircrafts yet, we don't know anything about the comissar's capabilities outside a vague promotional description and we don't even have rules for any of that.
How can we talk about them being overpowered?
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Indeed. The only stats we've seen so far are for Koshka and her Babushka walker, and those aren't overpowered by any means. Koshka is even a pretty pityful hero.
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MattShinners wrote:
braveheart101 wrote:
atraangelis wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.


Dude, don't listen to Kris. Even if FFG did exactly what he wanted, he would find something to grouse about. The power-creep in Dust Tactics is really not noticeable.


He's not just listening to Kris - he says that he's been watching DT and has seen the power creep himself. A more detailed rebuttal might help change that belief.


Ah, but has he actually played the game and looked at all the cards? While it is understandable that an outsider watching each new DT release would assume that there is power creep, the outsider would be wrong. Just see the below for why

1: walkers from the first starter set can easily hold their own on the battlefield, and have remained the backbone of most armies.
2: we have not yet seen the cards for all of the SSU models, and we don't even know the rules for aircraft yet. BUT, if FFG does as good a job with this new release as they have done with prior ones, I can fully expect that they will be balanced.
3: Of the cards for the SSU we have seen just the card for Koshka and her walker, Grand'ma. The cards can be found here > http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3111
Grand'ma is armed with a Howitzer and a Sulfur Jet, weapons which two of the other new SSU mechs will have. The Sulfur, while hard-hitting, has the abysmal range of....one. The Howitzer has range 6, but it only rolls 4 dice against an armor 2 infantry unit. So, it appears that none of the guns are anything more powerful than what we already have.

I would and could go on, but others have already made the points I have left to make.

It is always a good idea to do all your homework before you decide whether or not a game is one you want to play/having balance issues. In this way, gaming is kinda like politics-you have to get a balanced, informed perspective on a game issue before you can make a just judgement for yourself. There will always be those "Glenn Becks" of the gaming world that are on a one-man smear campaign, and while they sound like they know what they are talking about, it only takes a little bit of logic to pull apart their rants.

I hope this has been informative,

~Euen





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K G
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deedob wrote:
The last time, you had an uproar over the fact that the Allies didn't have any anti-air capabilities to speak of to defend against the new aircraft.

Then 2 weeks later... behold: a new allies anti-air unit is announced.

Can we please learn from past mistakes and WAIT until we have stats or, you know, the RULES for the new units before talking about game balance?

You're talking about the SSU being overpowered when we don't know a thing about their aircrafts yet, we don't know anything about the comissar's capabilities outside a vague promotional description and we don't even have rules for any of that.
How can we talk about them being overpowered?


just curious , when people post threads about how WONDERFUL and GREAT the new SSU units will be , do you post that they should wait till the stats come out ?

i have seen threads with people running around gushing like little girls over justin bieber , that also point to things like the 2 sniper rifles in the sniper squad , the commisar squads , how much they are looking forward to having helicopters ......... but as some one who has to wait at least 5 months or more , to even have the CHANCE to have an official aircraft , of ANY kind , not to mention airmoble infantry/walkers , its a bit one sided for the next long while , so forgive me if i dont see thigs so rosey .

had they not waited until the game was almost 2 years old , to introduce the SSU , they wouldnt need to introduce buffed units to play catch up . every thing could have gone more smoothly , and more EVENLY . even if it meant only getting a new unit release for my faction every other month , it would have been fair , even , and measured .

and tell me , can that new allied AA walker air drop units or another walker behind enemy lines ? nope , but the allied player better spend those points on that AA walker or risk getting screwed worse , while the SSU player can pick aircraft to try and drop units behind enemy lines and kill command squads , while the axis and allied player have to slug through the lines to try and do the same thing .

when this game began , i had faith in the way FFG was publishing this game , but that faith went away a long while back .

i dont drink the coolaid .
 
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braveheart101 wrote:
MattShinners wrote:
braveheart101 wrote:
atraangelis wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
I feel very much like the extreme power creep that is seen in WH40K , or AT43 op frostbite . They look very much like units geared toward DW , and less well suited for DT .


As a recovering Games-Workshop 40k addict player...
I have been watching dust tactics with some interest and i can truly say i see the same thing .. this has balked me in getting into this game because of it.


Dude, don't listen to Kris. Even if FFG did exactly what he wanted, he would find something to grouse about. The power-creep in Dust Tactics is really not noticeable.


He's not just listening to Kris - he says that he's been watching DT and has seen the power creep himself. A more detailed rebuttal might help change that belief.


Ah, but has he actually played the game and looked at all the cards? While it is understandable that an outsider watching each new DT release would assume that there is power creep, the outsider would be wrong. Just see the below for why

1: walkers from the first starter set can easily hold their own on the battlefield, and have remained the backbone of most armies.
2: we have not yet seen the cards for all of the SSU models, and we don't even know the rules for aircraft yet. BUT, if FFG does as good a job with this new release as they have done with prior ones, I can fully expect that they will be balanced.
3: Of the cards for the SSU we have seen just the card for Koshka and her walker, Grand'ma. The cards can be found here > http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3111
Grand'ma is armed with a Howitzer and a Sulfur Jet, weapons which two of the other new SSU mechs will have. The Sulfur, while hard-hitting, has the abysmal range of....one. The Howitzer has range 6, but it only rolls 4 dice against an armor 2 infantry unit. So, it appears that none of the guns are anything more powerful than what we already have.

I would, and could, go on, but others have already made the points I have left to make.

It is always a good idea to do all your homework before you decide whether or not a game is one you want to play/having balance issues. In this way, gaming is kinda like politics-you have to get a balanced, informed perspective on a game issue before you can make a just judgement for yourself. There will always be those "Glenn Becks" of the gaming world that are on a one-man smear campaign, and while they sound like they know what they are talking about, it only takes a little bit of logic to pull apart their rants.

I hope this has been informative,

~Euen

P.S. Kris, I know you are going to respond to this with a rant, so be informed that I will be ignoring it, just like I now ignore Glenn Beck.





no rant , just 2 points :

1) when you double the number of heavy weapons in a squad , what would you call it other than power creep ?

2) i wish my 88's were grenade weapons ..... like grand'ma's
 
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Guys for christ sake keep those posts short.. I'm unable to keep in mind what you started writing about when i finish your posts..
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
just curious , when people post threads about how WONDERFUL and GREAT the new SSU units will be , do you post that they should wait till the stats come out?

No, because they are not discussing stats. They are praising how cool the new units look, and how interesting the new tactical possibilities seem. You're outright condemning units as overpowered before even seeing what their powers are like.


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
when you double the number of heavy weapons in a squad , what would you call it other than power creep ?

A unit being more powerful than another is not power creep. This would be a pretty boring game if all units had the exact same power level. Power creep is when an older unit is made obsolete by the effectiveness of a new unit. If a weaker unit is still a worthwhile investment, then there's nothing wrong with the game introducing much more powerful units. And this is where the new point system shines, by making you sacrifice more AP for more powerful units.
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Kris, since you're here, I was just wondering if you could prune the huge list of inapplicable minis games from your blog. As a Heavy Gear Blitz! Locked & Loaded player I was excited to see an attached blog on the HG page here with tons of entries; but after reading all your entries there's zero HG content. Same deal for Warhammer 40k, and all the other minis games you've labeled your blog with. Since it is in fact a Dust-only blog, would you mind deleting the inapplicable labels to reflect that?

Thanks!
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I do like the look of the new Axis walkers, and the SSU helicopters designed to drop bombs.... definate improvement from the first pics of the troop carrier we saw earlier.

I'm a bit wary of the new faction, though.
 
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Loophole Master wrote:
GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
just curious , when people post threads about how WONDERFUL and GREAT the new SSU units will be , do you post that they should wait till the stats come out?

No, because they are not discussing stats. They are praising how cool the new units look, and how interesting the new tactical possibilities seem. You're outright condemning units as overpowered before even seeing what their powers are like.


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
when you double the number of heavy weapons in a squad , what would you call it other than power creep ?

A unit being more powerful than another is not power creep. This would be a pretty boring game if all units had the exact same power level. Power creep is when an older unit is made obsolete by the effectiveness of a new unit. If a weaker unit is still a worthwhile investment, then there's nothing wrong with the game introducing much more powerful units. And this is where the new point system shines, by making you sacrifice more AP for more powerful units.


I'd be dissapointed if the inevitable alien Vrill infrantry trooper squad in their super heavy armours was just as strong as the recon boys.
I EXPECT AND HOPE the Vrill are going to be overpowered... but to cost a heck of a lot of points to field.

There's so many unknowns this is an inane debate.

If an aircraft carrying a tank is destroyed in the air, how much damage does the tank take? Does the tank explodes with it completely? Dropping a tank BEHIND ennemy lines might be a very risky thing to do, especially since the anti-aircraft unit seems to have advanced reactive fire, making them not an overpowered element of the game, but just another gameplay option.

- Will a SSU player complain that the Axis and Allies are overpowered because of their super-heavy walkers?
- Will a SSU player complain that they don't have much in the way of armour 3 infantry?
- Will a SSU player complain that they don't have light walkers?
- Will a SSU player complain they don't have heavy command squads?

(I also wonder why you have not complained about the Allies going to have (for now) the only amphibious tank... even if we still have no idea how they will work.)

Honestly, the SSU having superior air-firepower, while the allies having superior mobility and the axis superior ground firepower just makes those faction different. Not overpowered, just different...

If you wanted a perfectly balanced game (and not saying it's not close in balance), then we'd all have the same stats for every units among every factions, making Dust Tactics a very boring game indeed.

So really, who cares that the SSU have 2 snipers in a squad? Let them have this ability... your own army has it's own perks that the SSU player will be jealous of.

You're worried that a player can spam a unit with the SSU? Why are you not worried NOW about unit spamming... the zombies perhaps? The BBQ squad?
All factions have units that can be spammed... Even so, their cost to effectiveness have all been so far relatively balanced. The BBQ squad costs a lot to field.

The game no longer has *your* point system. Nothing is made with those old things in mind since the original core set. Yet it always seem you are complaining about some meta-physical game balance between units that does not fully work with your house rule... because yes, at this point in time, converting all new units to the old point system is an house rule.
I don't think FFG or DM needs to cater to the need of someone's house rule, and i don't expect them to.

This constant complaining is even disrespectful to an extent:
- "Hello Dust Tactics fans! We are pleased to show you a new unit: the first long anticipated aircraft that will allow..."
- "YOU ARE DESTROYING THE GAME WITH THAT! You don't know what you are doing!"
At least allow them to finish speaking before passing judgment. FFG has not finished talking about the SSU that you are already condemning everything they make.

The new axis walker is probably going to be armour "5" from the description... will that completely destroy game balance too? It seems every single little change they make completely destroys the game...
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Andrew Hurp
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
Sniper squads with 2 sniper rifles . With 2 guns with a presumed range of 6 , who cares if it doesn’t have a spotter ?



*For those of you interested, sniperx2 will do exact same average damage as sniper+spotter.

sniper x2
2 hits: 1/9
1 hits: 4/9
0 hits: 4/9

sniper+spotter
1 hit: 6/9
0 hits: 3/9

The real difference comes in what can be done with linking heroes to them.
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...This debate is getting silly. We are a bunch of grown men arguing about plastic toys like it is the end of the world!
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