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Subject: Why would you ever *not* time attack? rss

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Steve Duff
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Just played our first game last night, and both of us decided to use time attack every single turn. It just seems like the obvious thing to do, you look at the board, decide that 3-4-5-coast-coast is the move you want, then chuck the 5 dice.

We each had 1 time in the entire game when we rolled 3 risk symbols, so the time discounts made up for it anyway. Now, we weren't playing any snow or tire changes in this first game, so that does affect things.

Are we totally out of it here? On a normal track with normal tires, how often would folks usually roll conservatively, or spend time tokens?
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Garry Rice
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It comes into play much more on mixed tracks. I think we pretty much time attack almost all the time if the course is just road.

It's quite a different story when driving in snow with regular tires and all you need to "crash" is 2 dice instead of 3.
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Todd Fowler
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I think the only time that I don't use a Time Attack is when I am rolling all of the black die. The white die are much safer, since they only have a single risk symbol.

Todd
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Mark Taraba
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I roll it on mostly every turn. I don't when I'm rolling 6 or 7 dice or when I'm hitting a jump at speed+1. I like to pay a chip to make sure I land on 4 wheels.
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Sean Tompkins
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I usually do a time attack about 75% of the time. If both racers are time-attacking continuously, then the times will be close - but if one person avoids crashing by not time attacking for a few turns, their time will be 1 minute faster - that's a big gap.

ALSO - are you marking tires lost during crashes? Losing the ability to roll a few black dice is huge if it happens early in the race... that alone could add another minute to your time.
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Darrell Hanning
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taraba wrote:
I roll it on mostly every turn. I don't when I'm rolling 6 or 7 dice or when I'm hitting a jump at speed+1. I like to pay a chip to make sure I land on 4 wheels.


This pretty much sums it up for me.
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Steve Bishop
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Lytham St. Annes
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I can't help myself, no matter how many dice "Time Attack!".

devil
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Wulf Corbett
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I found the same thing, and considered it far too easy - so I added an additional hazard symbol to each white die. Makes all the difference in the world! We rarely do Time Attacks now with more than 4 dice, using them to save up to counter possible hazards when rolling normally.

As stated, lose a die or two (especially white dice - those proved essential for fast cornering!) and the game changes.
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Brian Bankler
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

We each had 1 time in the entire game when we rolled 3 risk symbols, so the time discounts made up for it anyway.


They don't always make up for it. In fact, if you were going to end in 5th and end in 0th, that's fifty seconds. Assuming you rolled 5 dice you need nine turns of time attack to balance one crash.

Looking at the Rallyman probability calculation, rolling 3-4-5-gas-gas has a 12% chance of crashing. A bit less than 1 in 8. So if you were on a race with a million of those rolls, the "always time attack" would lose to the "never".

And that assumes that you end the next turn in the same gear that you would have been if you didn't crash. And no tire loss. Tire loss is terrible.

Also, when you crash you stop in the space you crashed. I saw someone time attack off the board which would have ended in 5th gear (10 seconds). Instead they stop short, get a minute, then had to roll two dice to leave the board, which meant he exited in 2nd gear (40 seconds). [You can't roll past the space you are off]. So a loss of 1:20 (1:40 - :10 - ~:8 seconds for time attacking). Sometimes (not too often) missing a time attack that puts your car 2-3 spaces short of a corner can cost you a turn.

It can also force you to roll 2-3 extra dice next turn (to get back up to gear) which greatly increases your chance of another crash.

In a short race then yes, you probably have to attack most turns. I usually attack when I'm downshifting (5-4-3-2-1), since a crash will typically keep you on the road (the 1 deck is safe, the 2 deck isn't bad) and only risk 10-20 seconds. Good odds.

The losses on a 1-2-3-4-5 roll are much worse. You risk a lot more when you fail, and you fail 16% of the time. I usually attack 5 dice with two gas, unless I think a crash would be catastrophic. It's close enough to even money (risk/reward) that I think you should take it. In a series depends on announced times so far.
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Brian Bankler
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Although nothing is more annoying than playing it "safe" and rolling Hazard-Hazard on your first two dice. Now spending to play safe gets outrageously expensive fast and sometimes you wish you'd just attacked and failed.

To be sure, I think you Time attack a lot. But I think that most races have at least 2-3 turns where it's a (long run) bad idea. But it's a short run game.
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Steve Duff
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Ok, thanks all. Looks like we're in the "normal" ballpark. When I initially read the rules, I thought it was going to be a rare move, it just surprised me how we fell into it every turn.

Next game we'll definitely bring out the snow, that'll help.
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Cameron Chien
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A lot of factors go into whether I time attack or not.

1. How many dice? Three or four is usually pretty safe (although I have rolled triple caution symbols with just three dice), but 5+ is less safe, which leads into factor #2...

2. What gear will I end up in? From a risk standpoint, going from 1st to 5th gear is way different than going from 5th down to 1st. If I crash in 4th or 5th gear, I will lose a lot more time. Also, leading into fact #3...

3. What is the terrain like near where I'm likely to spin out? If it's all grass, then great, but if I'm in a mountain pass, I'm taking black dice damage, and that is never good.

4. How early in the stage is it? Crashing early can spell doom, but pushing it near the end is not as bad.

5. Is there a repair step after this stage (if doing a multi-stage race, which I recommend)?

Cameron
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Yoki Erdtman
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Zeede wrote:
A lot of factors go into whether I time attack or not.

Great post Cameron!
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Jean-Christophe Bouvier
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Zeede wrote:
A lot of factors go into whether I time attack or not.

1. How many dice? Three or four is usually pretty safe (although I have rolled triple caution symbols with just three dice), but 5+ is less safe, which leads into factor #2...

2. What gear will I end up in? From a risk standpoint, going from 1st to 5th gear is way different than going from 5th down to 1st. If I crash in 4th or 5th gear, I will lose a lot more time. Also, leading into fact #3...

3. What is the terrain like near where I'm likely to spin out? If it's all grass, then great, but if I'm in a mountain pass, I'm taking black dice damage, and that is never good.

4. How early in the stage is it? Crashing early can spell doom, but pushing it near the end is not as bad.

5. Is there a repair step after this stage (if doing a multi-stage race, which I recommend)?

Cameron


Very good cameron and a other point : what is my advance or my late for the moment after first stages ?
2 minutes, I will drive safe, 10 secondes I'll take some risks ? or I wait that the next drivers crashed by taking risks ?

But for me never attack with more than 5 dice, nnd i avoid 5 black dice too. Except with soft tires !
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Cameron Chien
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That's what is so awesome about Rallyman. You can just chuck dice and have a blast or you can burn your brain trying to eek out as many seconds as possible.



Cameron
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Johny W
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Hi,

additional to Cameron. Depends on the oppenents.

6. Either I want to force the opponents to make time attack cause I'm fast.

7. If the leader lost control or got a puncture. I would be stupid if I take the risk!

8. If I had a puncture early on a stage I force to crash to repair it. (The last time I had this got another puncture 1 turn after repairing the tyre)

Thomas
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René Christensen
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7+8: count the puncture cards being drawn before you take shortcuts. whistle
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Johny W
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Yeah count. First I should learn to shuffle: 2 puncture cards on top of cards...

This was a nice race. I finished with 10 Min. The others with 4:30 Min...



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Luke Stirling
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JohnyW wrote:
Yeah count. First I should learn to shuffle: 2 puncture cards on top of cards...

This was a nice race. I finished with 10 Min. The others with 4:30 Min...

Basically the same thing happened to me on my very first game. It's unlikely, but it can happen no matter how well one shuffles.
 
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Got the same "problem" started my first game solo checking how everything works.

I took 2 landscapes only road L7-L4-C1-C2-L3-L2

1st car: no time attack at all, no crashes, result 4:40

2nd car: time attacked, got off the road after the second round into the woods, lost a gear, time attacked the rest of the game, result 4:52

3rd car: time attacked the whole time, got off the road same spot as 2nd car, moved smarter for the rest, result: 4:00

4th car: time attacked whole game, first round 3rd gear off the road into the woods, saying hello to the fairys, lost a gear, later on took a short paht, lost a tyre, still pushing, jumped 5th gear, result 3:28

In the end i think if you really gonna go for time attack be ruthless, push it like mad, win or death, thats what my 4 races say.

I think a way to avoid a time-attack mania is to make longer races, if you crash early and lose tyres or gears and you have about 20+ turns before you you will think twice.

Or use the snow.

Its more interesting as i supposed, i will open the expansion that day or tomorrow and habe a look if anything new will tweak this also.
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Cameron Chien
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Time attacking is definitely the key to winning, but time attacking 100% of the time is not, unless you're only doing one stage, and a short one at that.

Any game of Rallyman should really consist of at least three stages.

Cameron
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René Christensen
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Zeede wrote:

Any game of Rallyman should really consist of at least three stages.

Cameron

..... and IMO without repairing the cars between 1st and 2nd stage!!!
 
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Mikko Karvonen
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The same question has come up in our games as well. Like others have pointed out, you are effectively playing probabilities, and in a three-race game the "time attack every time" crowd has inevitably lost.
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Paul S
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IThinkItsCool wrote:
Got the same "problem" started my first game solo checking how everything works.

I took 2 landscapes only road L7-L4-C1-C2-L3-L2

1st car: no time attack at all, no crashes, result 4:40

2nd car: time attacked, got off the road after the second round into the woods, lost a gear, time attacked the rest of the game, result 4:52

3rd car: time attacked the whole time, got off the road same spot as 2nd car, moved smarter for the rest, result: 4:00

4th car: time attacked whole game, first round 3rd gear off the road into the woods, saying hello to the fairys, lost a gear, later on took a short paht, lost a tyre, still pushing, jumped 5th gear, result 3:28

In the end i think if you really gonna go for time attack be ruthless, push it like mad, win or death, thats what my 4 races say.

I think a way to avoid a time-attack mania is to make longer races, if you crash early and lose tyres or gears and you have about 20+ turns before you you will think twice.

Or use the snow.

Its more interesting as i supposed, i will open the expansion that day or tomorrow and habe a look if anything new will tweak this also.


This is interesting - but might have been better still if, at the end, you'd gone back and tried it again with the "no timeattack" approach, since I think playing the same rally several times will in and of itself improve your scores - a final "now I know the road" test would have been useful.

Still, good post
 
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Cameron Chien
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Exactly, I'm not seeing where this "problem" is coming from. You and I could both 100% time attack a stage, get no spin outs between us, and I could still finish the stage with a faster time by taking a better route through the stage.

Cameron
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