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Subject: Why/when would you personally choose abortion? rss

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Moshe Callen
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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For those who favor (like I do) the existence as a legal option of abortion, when or under what circumstances would you choose or advise someone else to choose abortion if the call was yours to make personally? I'm decidedly not asking under what circumstances abortion ought be legal. When would you personally choose abortion? This assumes males also have a say in the matter if the woman involved decides to make the decision jointly.
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CHAPEL
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Re: Why/when would you personally choose abrtion?
I would personally never choose abortion, nor would I ever advise someone to get one.
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Re: Why/when would you personally choose abrtion?
MWChapel wrote:
I would personally never choose abortion, nor would I ever advise someone to get one.


This.
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Damian
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Re: Why/when would you personally choose abrtion?
Any circumstance in which I was not already planning to have a child.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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Re: Why/when would you personally choose abrtion?
My own answer:
1. For what are basically religious reasons, I believe that if one must choose between the life or the mother and the life of the child or fetus-- even at the latest stage of pregnancy, then the mother's life must take precedence. In essence, an actual life always takes precedence over a potential life and moreover when someone else places one's life in danger one has a moral obligation to protect oneself.

2. Many cases are not so black and white as the above. Again, the mother's life and well-being takes precedence, although i admit that this is again based on religious reasons.

3. When the mother's life is not at risk or at least potentially at risk, then I cannot imagine circumstances where I would personally favor abortion unless they are horrific-- such as a very young girl or a woman who is not mentally competent being raped.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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I would choose or advise someone to consider the possibility of abortion under the following circumstances:

1) They were raped (incest or otherwise) AND they or medical professionals have reason to believe that having the baby would lead to debilitating trauma for the mother (see Moshe's response above, I think he said it better).
2) Medical diagnosis has shown that the baby will have severe defects that would lead to extreme suffering or death. This does not include down syndrome (by a long shot).
3) Medical diagnosis has shown that the mothers own life would be in severe jeopardy if the pregnancy went to term.

None of these are automatic and I think should be a choice only after some serious soul searching, and in my own personal opinion, divine guidance.
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Re: Why/when would you personally choose abrtion?
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."
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MWChapel wrote:
I would personally never choose abortion, nor would I ever advise someone to get one.


Even if the pregnancy will kill the mother and the embryo/fetus/baby will die anyway? Wow, that's hardcore crazy.
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Moshe Callen
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The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."

As a child of poor parents, I would express my response but I like being able to post on BGG too much.
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Clay
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whac3 wrote:
The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."

As a child of poor parents, I would express my response but I like being able to post on BGG too much.


Precisely why this isn't great dinner conversation.

In all seriousness though I hope you're not taking any of this personally, especially since the full concept is far more nuanced than the few paragraphs I've posted tonight and the message definitely isn't "see all these people? they shouldn't have been born" which I fear you may be getting out of it.
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Keith "Boaty McBoatface" C
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As a non-uterus owning individual, I can only say that if I were a woman, I would like to be able to have an abortion if I were made pregnant against my will, or if I knew that having a child would cause my life to be negatively affected or if I thought the child would not be adequately provided for.
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Moshe Callen
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The Message wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."

As a child of poor parents, I would express my response but I like being able to post on BGG too much.


Precisely why this isn't great dinner conversation.

In all seriousness though I hope you're not taking any of this personally, especially since the full concept is far more nuanced than the few paragraphs I've posted tonight and the message definitely isn't "see all these people? they shouldn't have been born" which I fear you may be getting out of it.

Clay;

I don't think you'd ever say such a thing even privately to yourself and if you ever did you would feel ashamed. Yet isn't that to some extent the implications of your attitudes and feelings? Isn't the attitude subconsciously bigoted and elitist?

Frankly the words quoted are your words-- not mine. They never occurred to me as such. Mu only assumption was that we perceive things markedly differently. That you came up with this description you are projecting onto me tells me that it's coming from somewhere, and it's not from me. So where is it coming from then? Yourself.
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The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."


You should get an abortion if you're not going to raise your child in the UPPER MIDDLE CLASS suburbs? Wow... just wow. I don't even know.

You're saying that... what... 10% of the people in the US should feel capable of raising a child? That a COLLEGE FUND is reasonable to expect? You realize that my mother has spent 90,000 putting me & my brother through STATE college, right? So you're saying you should have a 100k a year income and 200,000 in savings to have a child? That's just... so completely, entirely unreasonable I don't even know what to say.

My family is solidly middle class, maybe upper middle class, and my husband's family is too--but our parents weren't when they had us. Should my mother have had me at 30, instead of at 25 (right after graduating college, which she had to pay for herself since her medical technician mother and aeronautics engineer father couldn't afford to put the four kids through college)? So she should've waited until she was old and well-off, so her kids never have to face the hardships of generic brand diapers or some other terrible atrocity....


In general I am in favor of abortion when the child is unwanted to the degree where they will ruin your life and/or you will ruin theirs. For pregnant teenagers, having a baby can KEEP you poor (making it very difficult to graduate high school & go to college) but to say that nobody who lives paycheck to paycheck or can't afford a college fund shouldn't have a child is going WAY overboard.

As far as having children that you don't like... see/read Freakonomics. There was a terrible crime wave in the 80s that mysteriously started decreasing, and the cops claimed credit. But the Freakonomics folks discovered that crime started decreasing right when the children of the Roe v Wade generation would have reached their teenage years and been running around getting into mischief. Because women had the option to abort unwanted children instead of raising them in terrible, miserable environments, thousands of potential criminals had simply never been born. This isn't so much about poverty as about the attitude & desires of the parents. A poor mother who works her ass off to teach good values to her children and provide for them is a world away from the woman who hates the fact that she has a child dragging her down.

ETA: "Ample entertainment"?? 'Hey kid, go play outside/with your sibling/play make believe with that box.' DONE.
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I cannot make this decision because I am a dude.

I do support a woman's choice to have an abortion and respect her enough to not force her to give anyone the reason for it.
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I think this is a question that one cannot really answer until the situation arises. Seems like the kind of thing where people can easily surprise themselves, in one direction or another.
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whac3 wrote:
The Message wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."

As a child of poor parents, I would express my response but I like being able to post on BGG too much.


Precisely why this isn't great dinner conversation.

In all seriousness though I hope you're not taking any of this personally, especially since the full concept is far more nuanced than the few paragraphs I've posted tonight and the message definitely isn't "see all these people? they shouldn't have been born" which I fear you may be getting out of it.

Clay;

I don't think you'd ever say such a thing even privately to yourself and if you ever did you would feel ashamed. Yet isn't that to some extent the implications of your attitudes and feelings? Isn't the attitude subconsciously bigoted and elitist?

Frankly the words quoted are your words-- not mine. They never occurred to me as such. Mu only assumption was that we perceive things markedly differently. That you came up with this description you are projecting onto me tells me that it's coming from somewhere, and it's not from me. So where is it coming from then? Yourself.


I don't think it's bigoted and elitist due to the intent, though I can easily see how all it would take is a change in mindset to push it to that point. That's one of the big reasons it's not something worth discussing in the vast majority of situations, it's very prone to misinterpretations which would reflect extremely unfavorably on me. It usually feels like being that guy who keeps insisting he isn't a racist at a party, even if he isn't he's the only that can know and it certainly looks fishy.

Really though all of my conclusions on this topic are some of the most depressing ideas I hold, it's very important to stress that. Trying to make the best of a terrible situation and all that, essentially playing damage control. I'm not really a big fan of my own feelings on the matter so I'm trying to be especially cautious of hurting or offending others here (or wherever this might come up).

Anyways, enough of my rambling.
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Personally, I would very torn about it. But rape definitely would make me think about it or impending death. Also, perhaps being in a hopeless situation where I wasn't sure about my own future, let alone the future of a child. If anyone really thinks this is an easy choice, they obviously a) aren't a women; and b) haven't seriously thought about the situation. You don't have to be an ethically dead person to have thoughts about having an abortion.
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alexiscarlough wrote:
The Message wrote:
Any circumstances in which the child would be unwanted to any degree in general, and personally any circumstances in which the child could not be guaranteed a safe and secure future free from as much hardship as reasonably possible (for the purposes of discussion assume a minimum lifestyle level of the upper middle class in America, good neighborhood, both parents available for the vast majority of the time, sizable entertainment budget and a college fund capable of getting them into any school they would wish if they decide to go to one). Even meeting both criteria the decision to bring a life into the world should be make very carefully and treated as a gravely serious matter, in the understanding that it may be the worst thing you could ever do to that person possibly even due to events outside of your control after birth.

I tend not to discuss procreation with anybody outside of these RSP-style conceptual talks, for obvious reasons.


Edit: Missing the first "be."


You should get an abortion if you're not going to raise your child in the UPPER MIDDLE CLASS suburbs? Wow... just wow. I don't even know.

You're saying that... what... 10% of the people in the US should feel capable of raising a child? That a COLLEGE FUND is reasonable to expect? You realize that my mother has spent 90,000 putting me & my brother through STATE college, right? So you're saying you should have a 100k a year income and 200,000 in savings to have a child? That's just... so completely, entirely unreasonable I don't even know what to say.

My family is solidly middle class, maybe upper middle class, and my husband's family is too--but our parents weren't when they had us. Should my mother have had me at 30, instead of at 25 (right after graduating college, which she had to pay for herself since her medical technician mother and aeronautics engineer father couldn't afford to put the four kids through college)? So she should've waited until she was old and well-off, so her kids never have to face the hardships of generic brand diapers or some other terrible atrocity....


In general I am in favor of abortion when the child is unwanted to the degree where they will ruin your life and/or you will ruin theirs. For pregnant teenagers, having a baby can KEEP you poor (making it very difficult to graduate high school & go to college) but to say that nobody who lives paycheck to paycheck or can't afford a college fund shouldn't have a child is going WAY overboard.

As far as having children that you don't like... see/read Freakonomics. There was a terrible crime wave in the 80s that mysteriously started decreasing, and the cops claimed credit. But the Freakonomics folks discovered that crime started decreasing right when the children of the Roe v Wade generation would have reached their teenage years and been running around getting into mischief. Because women had the option to abort unwanted children instead of raising them in terrible, miserable environments, thousands of potential criminals had simply never been born. This isn't so much about poverty as about the attitude & desires of the parents. A poor mother who works her ass off to teach good values to her children and provide for them is a world away from the woman who hates the fact that she has a child dragging her down.

ETA: "Ample entertainment"?? 'Hey kid, go play outside/with your sibling/play make believe with that box.' DONE.


It's only absurd if you're approaching this from the stance that continuing to reproduce as a species is a fantastic idea, which seems to be where the vast majority of us are coming from. However, I'm not coming from that direction and generally think that reproduction is a bad move. If you reread it in that context it should make more sense, rather than saying "tons of people should meet this minimum" it's saying "if you're even thinking about doing this you should definitely pass this threshold."

Obviously not going to be a very popular position regardless of context, though.
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ejmowrer wrote:

2) Medical diagnosis has shown that the baby will have severe defects that would lead to extreme suffering or death. This does not include down syndrome (by a long shot).


I'll add this to my post above. I'm at an age that having a child is extremely risky for both me and the child. I don't really much care if RSP thinks I'm a souless jerk for considering an abortion under those circumstances. Although I'll say that the decision to raise a child with lifelong issues should be made on a case-to-case basis. I appreciate the thought though since I have relatives with this issue whose families went though with the pregnancy. Just don't demonize people for deciding against it.
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The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should at least have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).

PS - Don't be pedantic about IVF not requiring a Penis. I know it's tempting, but just don't.
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ejmowrer wrote:
The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).

PS - Don't be pedantic about IVF not requiring a Penis. I know it's tempting, but just don't.


Did I ever say males can't have an opinion about this? I did not. It's utter bullshit. Males absolutely can have a deep rooted opinion about it. You are reading way more into my comments above. I'll say that this is a very disturbing topic to me as a women over 40, where pregnancy is risky. I have edited this post several time, but suffice to say people over 40 worry about the health of their child, whether they are too old to deal with the issues of an impaired child, etc. Male and female.
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she2 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).

PS - Don't be pedantic about IVF not requiring a Penis. I know it's tempting, but just don't.


Did I ever say males can't have an opinion about this? I did not. It's utter bullshit. Males absolutely can have a deep rooted opinion about it. You are reading way more into my comments above. I'll say that this is a very disturbing topic to me as a women over 40 considering a risky pregnancy. Don't go overboard reading my comments.


Well, I agree that someone is reading things into things! haha. I wasn't responding to you at all. It was just coincidence that it was the next post after yours. Take a deep breath.... exhale... squeeze the stress ball...

I was responding to the few people who have implied as much or outright said it thus far, so I didn't quote any particular one of them.
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ejmowrer wrote:
she2 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).

PS - Don't be pedantic about IVF not requiring a Penis. I know it's tempting, but just don't.


Did I ever say males can't have an opinion about this? I did not. It's utter bullshit. Males absolutely can have a deep rooted opinion about it. You are reading way more into my comments above. I'll say that this is a very disturbing topic to me as a women over 40 considering a risky pregnancy. Don't go overboard reading my comments.


Well, I agree that someone is reading things into things! haha. I wasn't responding to you at all. It was just coincidence that it was the next post after yours. Take a deep breath.... exhale... squeeze the stress ball...

I was responding to the few people who have implied as much or outright said it thus far, so I didn't quote any particular one of them.


Sigh, fine. I guess I just read it that way since I'm the only woman in this entire thread.
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ejmowrer wrote:
The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should at least have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).


I didn't read all the posts, but I certainly never said males can't have opinions or comprehend the matter.

A man is free to think whatever he likes, but it is still not his decision. Perhaps he can influence a decision, but none of that decision is his.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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she2 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
she2 wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
The notion that males can't have an opinion or comprehend the implications of this because they don't have a vagina is utter nonsense, by the way. Furthermore, abortion is not possible without a penis and the person whose penis is involved should have a say into the matter, all else being equal (eg obviously not if they are a rapist or what have you).

PS - Don't be pedantic about IVF not requiring a Penis. I know it's tempting, but just don't.


Did I ever say males can't have an opinion about this? I did not. It's utter bullshit. Males absolutely can have a deep rooted opinion about it. You are reading way more into my comments above. I'll say that this is a very disturbing topic to me as a women over 40 considering a risky pregnancy. Don't go overboard reading my comments.


Well, I agree that someone is reading things into things! haha. I wasn't responding to you at all. It was just coincidence that it was the next post after yours. Take a deep breath.... exhale... squeeze the stress ball...

I was responding to the few people who have implied as much or outright said it thus far, so I didn't quote any particular one of them.


Sigh, fine. I guess I just read it that way since I'm the only woman in this entire thread.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about you necessarily. I was just getting hung up on all of the guys qualifying with statements like "I'm a dude, but..." and "I don't have a womb, so..."

Tangent time. I dearly wish we had more women regularly posting in RSP, actually. I hope you have the patience to put up with all of us and stick around for a while (or lurk less, whichever it is).
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