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Subject: Question on use of "you" in I Demand effects rss

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Paul Doherty
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The verbiage on the cards for I Demand seems clumsy since they say things like "I Demand you transfer a top non-purple card.. blah blah blah" and then a subsequent icon right under that says some positive benefit like "You may splay your green cards right". Both effects refer to "you" but it's obvious that I the I Demand statement refers to the opponent, but the second one isn't so clear. Does that mean the person attacked is getting a consolation prize of splaying their green cards right, or is it the person who attacked them getting a benefit? If the intention is that the first statement is an attack against any players who have less icons and the second is a benefit for the person who is attacking, does that also imply that any other players who may have as many or more icons are both immune to the I Demand effect but also allowed to share the secondary effect that's beneficial?


It seems that some of the above could have been helped by using verbiage like this:

"I demand all opponents transfer a top non-purple card with a crown from your board to my board. If you do draw and meld a 4!"

"Attacking player and any opponents eligible to share may splay their green cards right"

edit: the card I'm using as an example is the purple card, Enterprise.
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ErikPeter Walker
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Are they different paragraphs, each preceded by a symbol? Then the second part isn't part of the I Demand... and would only be eligible for people who had a number of matching symbols equal or greater to that of the acting player. Otherwise, the demand would end with the sentence "If you did, you may splay your green cards right".

I agree it's a bit confusing, but the rules are pretty clear on demands being resolved differently than other actions.

Edit to add: As long as you remember to resolve each action separately, it's pretty straightforward, and there's no need for help text.
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that Matt
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pdoherty wrote:
If the intention is that the first statement is an attack against any players who have less icons and the second is a benefit for the person who is attacking, does that also imply that any other players who may have as many or more icons are both immune to the I Demand effect but also allowed to share the secondary effect that's beneficial?

Correct.

The demand/non-demand distinction does take learning, but your revised verbiage actually seems more clumsy to me. You introduce the idea of an "attacking" player, and this would require rewording every non-demand dogma if the same wording would be used.

Each dogma effect is identified by the use of an icon. Remember that each dogma resolves separately. You can help understand to whom the dogma applies by reading it aloud as a demand. Using Emancipation as an example, because it's available here, you read aloud the first dogma:

"I demand you transfer a card from your hand to my score pile! If you do, draw a 6!"

This dogma starts with "I demand," so it is a demand. Exclamation points! So players with fewer factories will do as instructed. After everyone completes this dogma, you move on to the second:

"You may splay your red or purple cards right."

This dogma does not start with "I demand," so it is not a demand. No exclamation points. As with all non-demand dogmas, the card's owner performs the action as do all other players with an equal or greater number of factories.
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that Matt
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And you could have read:

Multipart "I Demand" dogmas
Cards with 'I Demand' and 'non-I Demand' dogma's
Second dot point on 'I demand' dogma cards
Two Dogmas (one I Demand & one non-demand)
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Paul Doherty
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tumorous wrote:


Well, if 4 threads weren't enough why stop at 5?
 
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Chris Cieslik
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What I'd -really- love is for BGG to roll out a FAQ system for games, where users could post questions, and official folks from the associated companies could answer them.

whistle
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Brook Gentlestream
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pdoherty wrote:
The verbiage on the cards for I Demand seems clumsy since they say things like "I Demand you transfer a top non-purple card.. blah blah blah" and then a subsequent icon right under that says some positive benefit like "You may splay your green cards right". Both effects refer to "you" but it's obvious that I the I Demand statement refers to the opponent, but the second one isn't so clear. Does that mean the person attacked is getting a consolation prize of splaying their green cards right, or is it the person who attacked them getting a benefit?

(emphasis mine)

The language makes more sense when read aloud. You have to understand that each effect with an icon is a different effect, independent of all others except in a way that is specified, and each effect is resolved separately.

"You" always indicates the player effected by the card. This is usually the person who is performing the action on the card (using the Dogma action), except in the case of Demand effects, where it refers to one or more other players.

So, you would read the first effect. It says, "I demand you...". Since demands effect your opponents, the player must read this effect to his opponents, as written. In this case, *I* or *me* refers to the person speaking, the player who performed the Dogma action. *You* refers to the people affected by the demand - your opponents.

"I Demand you transfer a top non-purple card to my hand." This means your opponents ("you" when reading out loud to them) must give you a card ("my", referring to the person reading the card to his opponents.)

I think we're all agreed up to this point.

Then, you read the next effect. It is completely independent of the previous effect. You know this because it has a symbol next to it, indicating it is a separate effect from above. It is *not* a demand effect, becuase it doesn't say "I demand..."and therefore is not read to your opponents in the same way.

It says, "You may splay your green cards right." Since all non-demand actions affect you, this action effects you. The "you" specified in the text refers to the player that executed the dogma action.

The purpose of switching the emphasis on "you" with the demand effects was an attempt to give the game a more natural conversational language while playing, but it does make it a bit confusing on text.

Short answer: if there is an effect with the "I demand" next to the icon, then "you" always refers to your opponents until you get to the next symbol indicating a new effect.



So for a hypothetical card that says:
* I demand you transfer a non-purple top card to my hand.
* You may splay your green cards right.

The person executing this dogma action will get a new card added to his hand and will get to splay his green cards. Opponents effected by this card will lose a card from their score pile.



If the card, read this way, however, then things would be different:

* I demand you transfer a non-purple top card to my hand. You may splay your green cards right.

In this case, the entire text is a single effect, and it happens to be a demand effect. With demand effects, "You" always refers to your opponents. So, in this case, any opponents affected would give you a card from their score pile and then splay their own green cards.


I hope I didn't just confuse you more.


Tip: With demands, pretend like you are reading the card to your opponents. You are commanding your opponents. For symbols without a demand, pretend like the card is reading itself to you. The card is commanding you.
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B C Z
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Remember that the icon count is the first clause of a statement.

"If you have fewer than X towers, I demand you blah blah blah."

"If you have X towers or more, You may splay your green cards up."

"If you have X towers or more, you must take your highest value care from your score pile into your hand."



In this case it is crystal clear who the 'you' refers to.

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Greg Williams
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angelkurisu wrote:
What I'd -really- love is for BGG to roll out a FAQ system for games, where users could post questions, and official folks from the associated companies could answer them.

whistle


Post this to the suggestions forum
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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fargus9 wrote:
angelkurisu wrote:
What I'd -really- love is for BGG to roll out a FAQ system for games, where users could post questions, and official folks from the associated companies could answer them.

whistle


Post this to the suggestions forum


This is absolutely hilarious. You're suggesting he go into one of BGG's features and post a message for an official to respond to, requesting a feature where one can leave messages and get official responses?

I love it!

 
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Chris Cieslik
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I've actually already suggested it directly, but the recursivity there was pretty funny.
 
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