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Subject: What constitutes an attack - official answer received! rss

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Ingólfur Valsson
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If a card effect makes an enemy make an attack ( see Wild Bear http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/lotr-lcg/Dwarr... ), what does that really mean. Do we go through the whole process of resolve enemy attack from the combat phase including dealing shadow cards?
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Tom Howard
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Good question...

Shadow cards are only dealt out at the beginning of the Combat Phase, and this attack certainly happens outside of that phase. Therefore, my initial impression would be that he is not dealt a shadow card for this forced immediate attack. You could still declare a defender, however, or let undefended damage go to a Hero. The downside to defending would be that you have to exhaust a character. Of course, when the Combat Phase arrives, then the Wild Bear would be dealt a shadow card at that time and would get to attack for the 2nd time in the round.

This definitely could use some clarification though, heh
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Tony Fanchi
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
That's what I thought, Tom, but the FFG article doesn't seem to agree:
Quote:
A Wild Bear attack during the quest phase may lead into the shadow effect of a Sleeping Sentry (Road to Rivendell, 46), triggering the discard of all exhausted characters, including the one who just exhausted to defend the Wild Bear.
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Allan Clements
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
I think it does not get a shadow card, however in this cards case, it has a forced effect which can also trigger during the normal engagement phase.

This means it can have a shadow card, and attack twice in one turn, however if it revealed during the quest phase it has no shadow card.

Shadow cards are only dealth at the start of the combat phase, this card does not trigger an extra combat phase, it simply triggers an extra attack against you (much like quick strike starts an attack, not the whole combat phase)

I will be disappointed if this is not the case, since the card does not state otherwise!
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jakub praibis
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
This was my reasoing: attacking has four steps, so why no Quick Strike then? And then, outside of the phase, why Shadow? Hope we get some answers but I find it rather unfortunate to create more "incosistencies" because of the new mechanic (which I like though).
 
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Ingólfur Valsson
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
PBrennan wrote:
Rules, pg 18, "When resolving enemy attacks, the players follow these 4 steps ...". Seems clear, just do it as per normal. If it wasn't as per this normal attack process, *then* the card would define an exception process.

Yes, but while reveal shadow card is among these steps, deal a shadow card isn't. So it's still not obvious.

Kamakaze wrote:
I think it does not get a shadow card, however in this cards case, it has a forced effect which can also trigger during the normal engagement phase.

This means it can have a shadow card, and attack twice in one turn, however if it revealed during the quest phase it has no shadow card.

Shadow cards are only dealth at the start of the combat phase, this card does not trigger an extra combat phase, it simply triggers an extra attack against you (much like quick strike starts an attack, not the whole combat phase)

I will be disappointed if this is not the case, since the card does not state otherwise!

You mean that if it engages during the quest phase or engagement phase the forced attack won't get a shadow card but will then get the card in the combat phase for it's second attack that round.

I tend to agree but I wouldn't be surprised that FFG come up with the official ruling that an enemy attack should always have a shadow card dealt ( or rather they will intend it to work that way and never mention it unless pushed by players ).

AdmiralACF wrote:
That's what I thought, Tom, but the FFG article doesn't seem to agree:
Quote:
A Wild Bear attack during the quest phase may lead into the shadow effect of a Sleeping Sentry (Road to Rivendell, 46), triggering the discard of all exhausted characters, including the one who just exhausted to defend the Wild Bear.

This would support the idea that a official ruling would be that a shadow card will be dealt with enemy attack.
 
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Ingólfur Valsson
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
jpraibis wrote:
This was my reasoing: attacking has four steps, so why no Quick Strike then? And then, outside of the phase, why Shadow? Hope we get some answers but I find it rather unfortunate to create more "incosistencies" because of the new mechanic (which I like though).

I'm not familiar with the Quick Strike problem? When can't you use it when you wanted to? I was under the impression you could even use the quick strike in the planning phase if you wanted.
 
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Jamie Riehl
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
KronikAlkoholik wrote:


I'm not familiar with the Quick Strike problem? When can't you use it when you wanted to? I was under the impression you could even use the quick strike in the planning phase if you wanted.

You can use it in the planning phase (although there's some confusion about how this works too) but that wouldn't help against an ambushing enemy because it hasn't been reveal yet.

In general you wouldn't be able to use Quick Strike during the reveal of encounter cards step of questing because only responses are allowed at that time. In the sense that ambush works like a "when revealed" effect of an encounter card then quick strike would not be allowed. However, if ambush triggers the four step combat process then Quick Strike (and other actions, Durin's Song for example) would be allowed during those steps.
 
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Ingólfur Valsson
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
camipco wrote:
KronikAlkoholik wrote:


I'm not familiar with the Quick Strike problem? When can't you use it when you wanted to? I was under the impression you could even use the quick strike in the planning phase if you wanted.

You can use it in the planning phase (although there's some confusion about how this works too) but that wouldn't help against an ambushing enemy because it hasn't been reveal yet.

In general you wouldn't be able to use Quick Strike during the reveal of encounter cards step of questing because only responses are allowed at that time. In the sense that ambush works like a "when revealed" effect of an encounter card then quick strike would not be allowed. However, if ambush triggers the four step combat process then Quick Strike (and other actions, Durin's Song for example) would be allowed during those steps.

I see what you mean, use Quick Strike against the Ambush.

Yes this is something that will need clarification, what constitutes an attack!

But interesting thing about Quick strike that I never thought off. You could basically decide to use it in the middle of an ememies attack, perhaps when you see his horrible +3 attack or something (shadow cards will always be resolve as flipping them and resolving are in the same step).
 
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jakub praibis
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Yes, Quick Strike is very useful. Dúnhere, Legolas, Brand - beside others - benefit especially from it.
 
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Jamie Riehl
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
On the other thread I thought of this, which seems relevant:
Remember also the shadow effect on Wolf Rider which also causes an attack "out of turn." On Wolf Rider it specifically says on the card to deal it a shadow card. This suggests to me that since Wild Bear does not specify to deal it a shadow card, it does not get dealt one.
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
camipco wrote:
On the other thread I thought of this, which seems relevant:
Remember also the shadow effect on Wolf Rider which also causes an attack "out of turn." On Wolf Rider it specifically says on the card to deal it a shadow card. This suggests to me that since Wild Bear does not specify to deal it a shadow card, it does not get dealt one.

Especially as it happens not even in the Combat phase.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Official Answer

From Nate:

Shadow cards should be dealt during attacks made outside of the combat phase. The [rules, pg 18] reads, "when resolving enemy attacks, follow these four steps." The main issue I see with that interpretation is that it is conflating the resolution of an attack with the act itself, and making the jump to the conclusion that anything that does not happen during the resolution of an attack (such as the dealing of a Shadow card) is not a part of the attack.

The main reason that Shadow cards are dealt at the beginning of the combat phase is that they serve as a convenient means of portraying which enemies have yet to act when combat is being resolved. (If an enemy has a face down shadow card, it still needs to resolve its attack.) Of course, this breaks down when the encounter deck empties mid shadow phase, but in most cases it serves its purpose, particularly early in most players' games, when they are still learning the basic mechanics -- it amounts to one less "memory issue" and stumbling point in those early experiences.

That said, it is worth specifying that Shadow cards should be dealt for enemies that attack outside the combat phase, so thanks for bringing it up -- I'll put it on the FAQ list. And yes, if the game is "foolish" enough to launch an attack during staging and open up action windows, the players can take full advantage of those action windows as they see fit.


OP, can you append " - official answer received" to the thread header. Thx.
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Matthew Saloff
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Wow, that makes no sense with the rules and texts we've ever been given, but okay, I guess.

Nate French just basically invalidated the whole rulebook though by saying that certain stuff is only there for "convenience" and isn't really "a rule". That's great...

And so why is there the text on Wolf Rider to draw Shadow Cards then?

I swear, some of these rulings Nate just makes up randomly, lol.
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Tony Fanchi
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
I can't say as I'm surprised by that ruling. That said, I tend to agree with you, Matthew, that it does seem to be the "wrong" ruling based on the way the rules are written, and isn't consistent with past cards, like the aforementioned Wolf Rider.
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Patrick Brennan
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Not sure I agree with your sentiment there. Each ruling I've asked him for over the last few months has been consistent with what I think most people would expect *should* happen. And here, ignoring rules, I suspect most would think all attacks *should* get a shadow card.

To me it's understandable that a rules book that was structured for the core set (let's not go into its shortcomings for the core set) might need clarification as the game's boundaries get stretched by expansions that were not conceived back when the game first came out. Here we've got some.

Re Wolf Rider, yep, that's now some redundant text. But at least it's helpful redundant text.

I'm not excusing FFG's model though - we'd all prefer that they take the appropriate time to update a living rules set so that new sequences and timings were all crystal clear prior to each release. I've offered myself, but ...
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Thomas McGranor Jr
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Seriously, some of these rulings that aren't covered in the 'guidelines book' are majorly Frenched up! What's next,a player is eliminated if his threat gets too low? Because if you try to lower your dial below zero, it reads higher then 50, so you lose! Makes perfect sense!!
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Tony Fanchi
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Patrick, I do agree with your sentiment that FFG will have to tweak the rules from time to time to account for new mechanics, which can't all be planned out ahead of time. But like you also said, the problem is the lack of transparency of the rule changes. Rather than finding these issues ahead of time when they are (presumably) playtesting the expansions, they seem to make it up on the fly. The rules sheets leave a lot to be desired in regards to addressing these issues before we sit down to play the quests for the first time. I'm not sure whether to chalk it up to group think (not noticing these issues that we all find) or if it's laziness (noticing the issues, but choosing to do nothing about them), but whatever the case may be, something seems to be missing from their process.

Not to mention that the FAQ is woefully out of date. It was last updated 10/31/11, which was way back when Emyn Muil was the new AP. It sometimes feels as if we're playtesting this thing for them, and I find that frustrating. I do appreciate the effort you and others go to in contacting Nate to ask these questions, but if it weren't for you reporting this stuff back to us, how would the rest of us ever know the answer? It sure as hell seems like FFG wouldn't bother to tell us.

Okay, I'm done ranting now. I just had to get that off my chest. Thank you, Patrick, for taking the time to email Nate about this and other questions, and for sharing the answers.
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Patrick Brennan
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
I hear ya
 
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
gulp
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Allan Clements
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
So does this mean I can play Dawn Take you all to remove it's shadow card?

http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/lotr/lord-of-the-rings-c...

"Play after shadow cards have been dealt, before any attacks have resloved.
Combat Action: Each player may choose and discard 1 facedown shadow card from an enemy with which he is engaged."

My understanding was that you could not use this card to remove the shadow card of a Wolf Rider that was just triggered from another enemies attack, but with there being no official point in the turn when shadow cards are dealt then you can play this after the Wolf Rider is revealed and it is DEALT a shadow card, then remove that shadow card (or indeed some other random shadow card that might have been on an unresolved attack)
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Patrick Brennan
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Dawn Take You All can only be played in the Combat Phase. If you read carefully, the turn sequence for the Combat phase hasn't changed at all. There is still an official point, at start of Combat Phase, where you deal out all shadow cards first before any attacks are initiated. Therefore DTYA still can't be used against Wolf Rider. Nor can DTYA be used to remove any shadow cards in any combat not in the Combat phase.

All that's been clarified is the process for combats outside the Combat Phase.
 
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Allan Clements
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
"If an enemy attacks a player outside of the combat phase deal it a shadow card."

What if an enemy attacked and the shadow card triggered a Worg Rider, would it get two shadow cards? (because Worg Riders says it gets dealt a shadow card)

"If an enemy attacks a player outside of the combat phase and it does not have a shadow card, and unless it says otherwise then deal it a shadow card."

Ok, clear as can be. But, what if Legolas completes a quest or triggers a location (or for some other reason) that causes cards from the encounter deck to be revealed during the combat phase?

Do these cards get shadow cards?

So perhaps:

"If an enemy attacks a player outside of the combat phase (or enters play after the dealing of shadow cards) and it does not have a shadow card, and unless it says otherwise then deal it a shadow card."

Now it is totally clear!

Of course in the case of the bear it is also possible for it to attack during the engagement phase, then again during the combat phase. So, it gets given a shadow card during the engagement phase then it gets dealt another one at the start of the combat phase?

If it gets the shadow card that prevents all damage, or a simple attack modifier do these stack between the two shadow cards dealt in different phases?

"If an enemy attacks a player outside of the combat phase (or enters play after the dealing of shadow cards) and it does not have a shadow card, and unless it says otherwise then deal it a shadow card. After this attack is resolved discard the shadow card unless it should be kept in play because it does something"

I can't really think how to word that well.

I personally hope this ruling is changed, but if not, I think we really need a new rule book!

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Tony Fanchi
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
Kamakaze wrote:
Of course in the case of the bear it is also possible for it to attack during the engagement phase, then again during the combat phase. So, it gets given a shadow card during the engagement phase then it gets dealt another one at the start of the combat phase?

If it gets the shadow card that prevents all damage, or a simple attack modifier do these stack between the two shadow cards dealt in different phases?
This is a very good question. I guess, following the rulebook (which apparently isn't always accurate), we would leave the shadow card dealt in the encounter phase on the bear until the end of the combat phase. The really tricky part is whether the bear gets a second shadow card at the start of the combat phase, which is unclear from the rules:

Rulebook, p 18 wrote:
At the beginning of the combat phase, the players deal 1 shadow card to each engaged enemy.... Cards should first be dealt to the enemies attacking the first player, and then proceed around the board until all enemies have 1 card.
These two sentences seem contradictory in the case of the bear. Should it be dealt 1 shadow card, or should it have exactly one shadow card?
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Re: What constitutes an attack.
AdmiralACF wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
Of course in the case of the bear it is also possible for it to attack during the engagement phase, then again during the combat phase. So, it gets given a shadow card during the engagement phase then it gets dealt another one at the start of the combat phase?

If it gets the shadow card that prevents all damage, or a simple attack modifier do these stack between the two shadow cards dealt in different phases?
This is a very good question. I guess, following the rulebook (which apparently isn't always accurate), we would leave the shadow card dealt in the encounter phase on the bear until the end of the combat phase. The really tricky part is whether the bear gets a second shadow card at the start of the combat phase, which is unclear from the rules:

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why you're focusing on this. Even if the Bear could come up during the Engagement phase, which I don't understand, it would attack immediately. The shadow card it gets dealt for that attack would be discarded after the attack. Then when it attacks again in the combat phase things operate as normal.

One thing that struck me from Nate's comments that no one has discussed yet is this:
Quote:
And yes, if the game is "foolish" enough to launch an attack during staging and open up action windows, the players can take full advantage of those action windows as they see fit.

Is he saying that the Bear does trigger the full combat phase sequence so that cards with applicable abilities can be played? So that Dawn Take You All actually can be played here, as well as Quick Strike and others?
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