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Thunderstone Advance: Towers of Ruin» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monster Type rss

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Citizen Keen
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My apologies if this is covered in the Rules - I did a pretty thorough search and didn't find it, but I may have missed it.

Do monsters have more than one type? Are the undead treants "Undead" and "Treant," or are they "Undead Treant"? Does an Undead Treant share a type with an Undead Skeleton?

Thanks!
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Will M. Baker
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CitizenKeen wrote:
My apologies if this is covered in the Rules - I did a pretty thorough search and didn't find it, but I may have missed it.

Do monsters have more than one type? Are the undead treants "Undead" and "Treant," or are they "Undead Treant"? Does an Undead Treant share a type with an Undead Skeleton?

Thanks!


If a card refers to monster "type", they mean the entire monster name, e.g. "Undead Treant", and not "Undead" or "Treant".

There are other references explicitly to "Undead", "Elemental", etc., in which case we're only considering a component of the type.
 
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Frederick Ohlmann
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darquil wrote:

There are other references explicitly to "Undead", "Elemental", etc., in which case we're only considering a component of the type.


The rulebook is frustrating on this part. Neither group nor type are directly defined, and only the play example and forums responses allow to understand what is a "group". And to top this the taxonomy of groups is not alway in the same order (dragon - fire and hydra - dragon for example)
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Citizen Keen
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Well, my question relates more to the Deepstrider and the Tower of Contempt scenario. If my Deepstrider reveals an Undead Treant, do I gain a bonus against Undead Skeletons?
 
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Will M. Baker
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TheLazyHase wrote:
And to top this the taxonomy of groups is not alway in the same order (dragon - fire and hydra - dragon for example)


I completely agree. The taxonomies are all over the map. The Undead are by far the most consistent, and seem to establish a pattern of the general term coming first (a pattern followed by Abyssals and Elementals, but not by Humanoids and Animals).

Then there are the monsters with a simple group that has since become a more general term: Abyssal, Dragon (although they are subcategorized by color), Humanoid, Enchanted (if you count Dark Enchanted).

There's also "Undead•Horde" and "Horde•Humanoid", and a bunch of guardians that are also Doomknights, but not Humanoids, despite "Doomknight•Humanoid". It's a mess.

It's also bothered me how orcs can be found in Humanoid, Orc•Humanoid, Horde•Humanoid, and Undead•Horde.
 
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Will M. Baker
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CitizenKeen wrote:
Well, my question relates more to the Deepstrider and the Tower of Contempt scenario. If my Deepstrider reveals an Undead Treant, do I gain a bonus against Undead Skeletons?


My understanding is no; the monster group must match exactly.

See also: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/8592089#8592089
 
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Citizen Keen
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Just for the sake of discussion, there are cards in Thunderstone Advance that give you a bonus to creatures that are Undead. But there are no creatures that have the type "Undead." There are only "Undead * Skeleton," "Undead * Horde," and "Undead * Treant."

What is the difference?
 
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Will M. Baker
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CitizenKeen wrote:
Just for the sake of discussion, there are cards in Thunderstone Advance that give you a bonus to creatures that are Undead. But there are no creatures that have the type "Undead." There are only "Undead * Skeleton," "Undead * Horde," and "Undead * Treant."

What is the difference?


I've read these not as "Type = Undead" but rather "Type contains Undead", or "Undead...". Same with "Humanoid..."

I think the difference is that these cards are referencing a keyword on the card, which could be all or just part of the monster group name; whereas other cards (Gohlen, Slynn, Deepstrider) call for a matching/same type/group, which implies the entire group name, and an exact match.
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Citizen Keen
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Just giving myself a little bump, hoping to get a formal ruling from the dudes from AEG.

Will: I see what you're saying, but I don't think the card imply that. I think they imply the opposite. You may infer otherwise, but by setting the card types apart with the little */dot, it implies that they're separate, and since the only cards that refer to type refer to a single type (Undead, etc.), then I think that's where the implication lies. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (and in fact, I think it's likely that it's correct), but I do think the natural assumption is that a card has multiple racial types.

See also: A card can be a Dwarf and a Fighter, without being both; also, the entirety of Magic: The Gathering and most other CCGs (which are not the same game but inform the collective understanding).

Edit: Also, note that the first time we're introduced to 'type' in Thunderstone: Advance, via the Deepstrider, is in the set-up Towers of Corruption, which features three different Undead monster decks. If it work the way Will says it does, I think that's a very confusing entry point for beginners.
 
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Mark Wignall
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CitizenKeen wrote:
My apologies if this is covered in the Rules - I did a pretty thorough search and didn't find it, but I may have missed it.

Do monsters have more than one type? Are the undead treants "Undead" and "Treant," or are they "Undead Treant"? Does an Undead Treant share a type with an Undead Skeleton?

Thanks!


While not specifically mentioned in say the Glossary where I'd expect it, it is indicated on diagram of the Monster Randomizer cards on p.8 of the rule book, which has the "monster group" defined as the all the text to the left of the "monster level" text.

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Ryan Metzler
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CitizenKeen wrote:
Just giving myself a little bump, hoping to get a formal ruling from the dudes from AEG.

Will: I see what you're saying, but I don't think the card imply that. I think they imply the opposite. You may infer otherwise, but by setting the card types apart with the little */dot, it implies that they're separate, and since the only cards that refer to type refer to a single type (Undead, etc.), then I think that's where the implication lies. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (and in fact, I think it's likely that it's correct), but I do think the natural assumption is that a card has multiple racial types.

See also: A card can be a Dwarf and a Fighter, without being both; also, the entirety of Magic: The Gathering and most other CCGs (which are not the same game but inform the collective understanding).

Edit: Also, note that the first time we're introduced to 'type' in Thunderstone: Advance, via the Deepstrider, is in the set-up Towers of Corruption, which features three different Undead monster decks. If it work the way Will says it does, I think that's a very confusing entry point for beginners.


To give you an official ruling, here you go:

This is an official ruling:

In all instances of the word type that refer to monsters, type refers to the monster group. This means that Undead*Skeleton and Undead*Treant are not the same type. We will not be using type to refer to monster groups going forward.

As for the Deepstrider, if I am not mistaken the card SAYS group on it.
 
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Citizen Keen
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slaqr wrote:
CitizenKeen wrote:
Just giving myself a little bump, hoping to get a formal ruling from the dudes from AEG.

Will: I see what you're saying, but I don't think the card imply that. I think they imply the opposite. You may infer otherwise, but by setting the card types apart with the little */dot, it implies that they're separate, and since the only cards that refer to type refer to a single type (Undead, etc.), then I think that's where the implication lies. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (and in fact, I think it's likely that it's correct), but I do think the natural assumption is that a card has multiple racial types.

See also: A card can be a Dwarf and a Fighter, without being both; also, the entirety of Magic: The Gathering and most other CCGs (which are not the same game but inform the collective understanding).

Edit: Also, note that the first time we're introduced to 'type' in Thunderstone: Advance, via the Deepstrider, is in the set-up Towers of Corruption, which features three different Undead monster decks. If it work the way Will says it does, I think that's a very confusing entry point for beginners.


To give you an official ruling, here you go:

This is an official ruling:

In all instances of the word type that refer to monsters, type refers to the monster group. This means that Undead*Skeleton and Undead*Treant are not the same type. We will not be using type to refer to monster groups going forward.

As for the Deepstrider, if I am not mistaken the card SAYS group on it.


Thank you kindly! Much appreciated - I predict this will forestall numerous arguments in my gaming group. Really grateful you guys are a presence on this board.
 
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Ryan Metzler
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CitizenKeen wrote:
slaqr wrote:
CitizenKeen wrote:
Just giving myself a little bump, hoping to get a formal ruling from the dudes from AEG.

Will: I see what you're saying, but I don't think the card imply that. I think they imply the opposite. You may infer otherwise, but by setting the card types apart with the little */dot, it implies that they're separate, and since the only cards that refer to type refer to a single type (Undead, etc.), then I think that's where the implication lies. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (and in fact, I think it's likely that it's correct), but I do think the natural assumption is that a card has multiple racial types.

See also: A card can be a Dwarf and a Fighter, without being both; also, the entirety of Magic: The Gathering and most other CCGs (which are not the same game but inform the collective understanding).

Edit: Also, note that the first time we're introduced to 'type' in Thunderstone: Advance, via the Deepstrider, is in the set-up Towers of Corruption, which features three different Undead monster decks. If it work the way Will says it does, I think that's a very confusing entry point for beginners.


To give you an official ruling, here you go:

This is an official ruling:

In all instances of the word type that refer to monsters, type refers to the monster group. This means that Undead*Skeleton and Undead*Treant are not the same type. We will not be using type to refer to monster groups going forward.

As for the Deepstrider, if I am not mistaken the card SAYS group on it.


Thank you kindly! Much appreciated - I predict this will forestall numerous arguments in my gaming group. Really grateful you guys are a presence on this board.


Hehe, well I'm only a proxy presence, but I do speak for the developers. Thanks for the kind words.
 
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Jeff Quick

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I'm grateful for Ryan's presence on these boards too!
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