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Subject: Avatars of Good and Evil - Finished, Good Wins in the final day. rss

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Brian
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So I have an idea for a game, and I wanted to think it through and get some feedback on it...

The Moon burns, rivers run red like blood, the earth trembles, and the dead walk. The end times are upon us and the final confrontation of Good and Evil has begun. The cult of Apocalypse wants to ensure the end of the world, however there is yet hope. Can the survivors stop the cult before it is too late, or will the cult succeed in their attempts to end the world?

Evil
Avatar of Evil - Knows the Cultists and at Dawn of D1 the mod will announce them as an Avatar. The Avatar of Evil can not be killed and does not count for parity.
Cultist - 3 - The Cultists share a chat and control the NK. Cultists count for parity.

Good
Avatar of Good - Each night, starting Night Zero, the Avatar of Good is told the name of a random living good player, will not get the same player twice. Dawn of D1 the mod will announce them as an Avatar. The Avatar of Good can not be killed.
Villager - 8 - Regular villagers. (maybe some special goods, no idea what)

Full reveal on death.
Evil wins when Living Cultists = Living Good.
Good wins when all cultists are dead.
Balance is intended but not guaranteed. (Though with a public role set you know better what you are getting into and please do provide feedback if you have it )
Can't think of any other rules that need to be specified.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Basically the Avatar of Good is a Seer who claims D1 and isn't ever killed (and never gets a positive view) while the Avatar of Evil is a cultist who counters the Seer D1 (and knows the wolves). I would ask for volunteers to play the Avatars.

Issues with the role set? Evil needs 3 mislynches, is that too many? Should good have any other specials? Should the Cultists know the Avatar of Evil? Should the Avatar of Good have a N0? Should they get a full seer view instead of random negatives?
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Jamgar
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
This does sond interesting. Given the Avatar is an undying seer, positives might be a bit strong. Especially because it could get one seer confirmed early.
 
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Brian
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
jamgar wrote:
This does sond interesting. Given the Avatar is an undying seer, positives might be a bit strong. Especially because it could get one seer confirmed early.
Yeah, that was the thought.

And because it wasn't spelled out, evil wins when the number of cultists equals the number of villagers... Good wins when the cultists are all dead.

I was also thinking about having the villagers pick an avatar each night and giving the avatar of good a view for every 3 villagers that picked them. Or something like that.
 
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Dan Corrin
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested

As always, play it out on paper.
The play of the avatar of good (should be) simple. Relate your view every day and accumulate a list of cleared players.

The avatar of evil can choose who they reveal, and it would seem to me that there job is to false-clear the wolves. With an 11-player game, 4 views would be about all that would be expected to cover 3 players. So if they don't false-clear a player within the first two days then they aren't doing their full job. Perhaps they could as a priority false-clear people who were top-runners for lynch, but didn't get lynched. When they chose to false-clear would affect the villager strategy, but would be unknown.

It would seem that the villagers would be the key here. They could just ignore the views and lynch suspicious people until they got a wolf hit which might identify the avatar of evil. Purposely lynching cleared players as a policy would likely be a poor decision, as the avatar of evil could chose to not clear any wolves. The other choice would be lynching from the uncleared pool, which might work depending on how fast the wolves are false-cleared. Likely a combination of the three would work best.

Wolves have a choice of NK cleared players (which could re-enforce the validity of either seer - are they going to chose the evil or good seer?) or NK uncleared players or a combination.

So no, I don't see any flaws, which doesn't mean there aren't any of course...

3 evils (and an aux) in a 11-player role-set seems high?
I would leave the uncertainty on the wolves knowing the avatar, it should become obvious soon enough.
As the avatar of good is unkillable then getting full views would be testable and thus eliminate the usefulness of the other avatar on a hit.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
dcorrin wrote:
3 evils (and an aux) in a 11-player role-set seems high?


Three in nine, really, since the Avatars don't affect the numbers game.

Which is high, but the question is how strongly the inclusion of the Avatars and the information gained from them favours the village.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
BlackSheep wrote:
dcorrin wrote:
3 evils (and an aux) in a 11-player role-set seems high?


Three in nine, really, since the Avatars don't affect the numbers game.

Which is high, but the question is how strongly the inclusion of the Avatars and the information gained from them favours the village.


They still get a vote, and a 4-player evil voting block can have a big effect... Because of the FUD of the evil avatar, I don't know that it is that big an advantage for good. Definite advantage, yes - as there is some transfer of knowledge.
 
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Brian
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
dcorrin wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
dcorrin wrote:
3 evils (and an aux) in a 11-player role-set seems high?
Three in nine, really, since the Avatars don't affect the numbers game.

Which is high, but the question is how strongly the inclusion of the Avatars and the information gained from them favours the village.
They still get a vote, and a 4-player evil voting block can have a big effect... Because of the FUD of the evil avatar, I don't know that it is that big an advantage for good. Definite advantage, yes - as there is some transfer of knowledge.
My original instinct was to do 8 villagers (so good has 2 mislynches available) but I was concerned that the game became too solvable at that point and I figured feedback would be better on the harsher 1 mislynch version.

Also I don't think I would play the Avatar of Good the way you outline, but possibly I am crazy.
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
Melriken wrote:
My original instinct was to do 8 villagers (so good has 2 mislynches available) but I was concerned that the game became too solvable at that point and I figured feedback would be better on the harsher 1 mislynch version.

Also I don't think I would play the Avatar of Good the way you outline, but possibly I am crazy.


I often miss some of the possible plays, but it is generally a good idea to come out with what one expects the role to do and how that would influence the other players, looking for issues with the interaction, which usually means restricted choices. But then if someone thinks of something new it adds more variability and less concern.
For example if the conditions means that say evil has to do a certain action or likely lose then good knows this and limits their responses and so on which can break the game.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
dcorrin wrote:
Melriken wrote:
My original instinct was to do 8 villagers (so good has 2 mislynches available) but I was concerned that the game became too solvable at that point and I figured feedback would be better on the harsher 1 mislynch version.

Also I don't think I would play the Avatar of Good the way you outline, but possibly I am crazy.
I often miss some of the possible plays, but it is generally a good idea to come out with what one expects the role to do and how that would influence the other players, looking for issues with the interaction, which usually means restricted choices. But then if someone thinks of something new it adds more variability and less concern.
For example if the conditions means that say evil has to do a certain action or likely lose then good knows this and limits their responses and so on which can break the game.
Well it seems to me that the Cultists are more or less required to lynch the 'cleared' players to prevent a buildup of seer clears. Thus team good should be trying to make this as hard as possible while also creating more cleared players if at all possible.

Thus as the Avatar of Good I would false claim my N0 view and wait for them to NK that player N1 (or the Avatar of Evil's clear) Then if the D1 lynch was good I claim my real N0 and N1 views (at which point we have 2 dead goods, and 2 clear goods, leaving 2 unclear goods and 3 cultists in the lynch pool). If the D1 lynch was a cultist I can go for broke and claim whatever I want for N1 view coming out with the truth D3 having hopefully cleared every living good but at least clearing 2 of 3.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested
Player List According to Cassandra:
Avin
bwt2q
dcorrin
Dispaminite
kuchick
lvoverride
miraria
saberwolf13
shushnik
thatfedoraguy
Violintides
yiatzi
ZenMonkey11

13 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jeremy/werewolf/game/7789...
 
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Brian
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
Remember, when you signup let me know if you are interested in being an Avatar. And I am still interested in thoughts on the role set and it should not be considered final at this point.
 
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Dan Corrin
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
Melriken wrote:
Well it seems to me that the Cultists are more or less required to lynch the 'cleared' players to prevent a buildup of seer clears. Thus team good should be trying to make this as hard as possible while also creating more cleared players if at all possible.

Thus as the Avatar of Good I would false claim my N0 view and wait for them to NK that player N1 (or the Avatar of Evil's clear) Then if the D1 lynch was good I claim my real N0 and N1 views (at which point we have 2 dead goods, and 2 clear goods, leaving 2 unclear goods and 3 cultists in the lynch pool). If the D1 lynch was a cultist I can go for broke and claim whatever I want for N1 view coming out with the truth D3 having hopefully cleared every living good but at least clearing 2 of 3.


I really meant for you to do that internally to verify the role-set.
From the villager's POV there is one avatar acting strangely and the "cleared pool" is an either-or of two sets of cleared goods, even though the good avatar's set is reduced.
Also the cultists aren't required to lynch the cleared players, at least not in every lynch.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
dcorrin wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Well it seems to me that the Cultists are more or less required to lynch the 'cleared' players to prevent a buildup of seer clears. Thus team good should be trying to make this as hard as possible while also creating more cleared players if at all possible.

Thus as the Avatar of Good I would false claim my N0 view and wait for them to NK that player N1 (or the Avatar of Evil's clear) Then if the D1 lynch was good I claim my real N0 and N1 views (at which point we have 2 dead goods, and 2 clear goods, leaving 2 unclear goods and 3 cultists in the lynch pool). If the D1 lynch was a cultist I can go for broke and claim whatever I want for N1 view coming out with the truth D3 having hopefully cleared every living good but at least clearing 2 of 3.
I really meant for you to do that internally to verify the role-set.
From the villager's POV there is one avatar acting strangely and the "cleared pool" is an either-or of two sets of cleared goods, even though the good avatar's set is reduced.
Also the cultists aren't required to lynch the cleared players, at least not in every lynch.
Sure, but I decided that (A) I wouldn't be playing in it (at least the first few games) and (B) discussing it could only make for better games.

Also I doubt that my first instinct is the 'correct' way to play it.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
Melriken wrote:
Sure, but I decided that (A) I wouldn't be playing in it (at least the first few games) and (B) discussing it could only make for better games.

Also I doubt that my first instinct is the 'correct' way to play it.


There is no "correct" way. If there is, then it is possible that the game is broken. There may be sub-optimal ways, and BSC ways to play too.
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
I just signed up on Cassandra.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
The Avatar views are kind of like a public half-seer view. Assuming both Avatars name someone, you know at least one of the two named is good.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
dcorrin wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Sure, but I decided that (A) I wouldn't be playing in it (at least the first few games) and (B) discussing it could only make for better games.

Also I doubt that my first instinct is the 'correct' way to play it.
There is no "correct" way. If there is, then it is possible that the game is broken. There may be sub-optimal ways, and BSC ways to play too.
That's why I put correct into quotes. What I meant was the agreed upon standard play after significant testing is complete.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (1/13)
BlackSheep wrote:
The Avatar views are kind of like a public half-seer view. Assuming both Avatars name someone, you know at least one of the two named is good.
A little better then that because when you get a second view you know that both views by at least one of the avatars are good. But yes anything that applies to a half seer view applies to the Avatar view as well.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (5/13)
BlackSheep wrote:
The Avatar views are kind of like a public half-seer view. Assuming both Avatars name someone, you know at least one of the two named is good.


Assuming that the avatar of good reveals his true view. Which isn't necessarily something I would do as the avatar of good.
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (5/13)
I don't know if you saw that I wrote it when I signed up, but I did say I would be willing to be an Avatar, Brian.

Everyone always thinks I am evil anyway, so why not FUD for fun! cool
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (5/13)
Robb wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
The Avatar views are kind of like a public half-seer view. Assuming both Avatars name someone, you know at least one of the two named is good.


Assuming that the avatar of good reveals his true view. Which isn't necessarily something I would do as the avatar of good.


Agreed - I would only release my true view if they were about to get lynched. Other than that, I wait until d3 (+1 day for each evil lynch) to try to build up a following of goods. Basically: I release on the day that it becomes a must-lynch. I don't want the known goods to get nk'ed.

Also, I use my knowledge of who is good to try and lead the discussion towards the people that are unknown. I realize this may make it better known who my clears are, so I do spread a little fud their way too.

That's how I would play it, anyway.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (6/13)
Cassandra Project wrote:
Player List According to Cassandra:
dcorrin
jamgar
lvoverride
saberwolf13
Violintides
yiatzi

6 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jeremy/werewolf/game/7789...
Almost half way there... the second half goes faster though.
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (6/13)
I am considering dropping this back down to evil needing 2 mislynches instead of 3 (means 11 player game (removing 2 villagers)).

I would like to make it reasonable for the Avatar of Evil to claim a clear on a Cultists, which wouldn't work too well if the village can afford 2 mislynches (or so my simulations tell me).
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (6/13)
This is like the reverse investigator
 
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Re: Avatars of Good and Evil - Input requested - In Signup (6/13)
Melriken wrote:
I am considering dropping this back down to evil needing 2 mislynches instead of 3 (means 11 player game (removing 2 villagers)).

I would like to make it reasonable for the Avatar of Evil to claim a clear on a Cultists, which wouldn't work too well if the village can afford 2 mislynches (or so my simulations tell me).
yeah, only 2 mislynches is coming out too much in evil's favor (not enough information D1/D2).
 
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