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Subject: Mirror mirror on the wall, is WHQ the best dungeon crawler of all? rss

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Chris Leigh
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So I've only been recently active in the forums of WHQ, but with around 10 games under my belt I feel like I can provide my thoughts.

The good:

First up, I'm a big fan of this game, its really really fun, especially with those who have active imaginations and can envisage themselves delving through dungeons.

The game drips theme, the models are lovely, the dungeon cards have fantastic little intros to them and the different quests you get sent on are varied and even mix up the rules in interesting ways.

On the whole I've found the initial chars pretty balanced, the nimble elf with a ranged attack plays very differently from the raging barbarian, but neither feels weaker or stronger than the other (this may be VERY different as they level up but I'm talking about the base game at present) the wizard is really interesting, I find it frustrating with the power phase, you need to be able to cast spells when you roll a 1 but you haven't the power to do it! I love the feeling of praying your dwarf deflects the minotaurs blows so you'd be able to hurl a fireball at the nasty monster.

I like that its a quick game too, you can blitz through (aka die horribly) in around an hour without too much problem. As I mentioned the die horribly bit, I also like that its HARD, completing the dungeon is a proper achievement (or so I would imagine, I'll let you know when all 4 make it out alive)

Finally the replayability provided in the roleplay book is utterly immense, and adds a whole dimension to the game.

The bad:

Whilst I love the game I do think it has some flaws, especially in comparison to the other games in this genre.

Firstly on a basic turn there isn't a vast amount to "do" if you fail to roll 1s and your dungeon is predominantly passageways, it doesnt even feel like you're playing a game! You just move ever closer to the next door, and if you go through three corridors with nothing happening you can get a bit disillusioned (that said in my experience after a lull like that you normally end up with 7 consecutive events afterwards)

Secondly, I dislike that you have to stick together. The nature of heroquest and the like meant you could pair off and explore different bits. The exploration was more interesting as well due to the furniture and treasure chests found. Whilst I may have been playing like a greedy bastard the joy of running into the treasure room and nicking all the gold before my friends never grew old in HQ.

Thats it for the cons but I do think they are significant. I still love WHQ and the solo play is truely epic, as it is with like minded people. In my heart of hearts though I feel that a DMed dungeon crawler does mitigate the lulls that you find in WHQ and lead to a better "gaming" experience (though not a "roleplay" one)

In my opinion its definitely worth the money, even the inflated prices it commands now, but before you commit you'd want to make sure that your players get into it for the theme in order for them to get the maximum enjoyment out of it.

Oh and the mirrors response, in my humble opinion (and this is a little of 7 year old me in part answering on Xmas Day) would still say Heroquest reigns supreme though WHQ comes a very close second.
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John "Omega" Williams
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WHQ is still the hands down best of the GM-less dungeon crawlers to date. That doesn't mean its not without some flaws. But they are flaws that are either inherint to the randomized nature of any game like this. Or flaws you can potentially ignore or houserule.

Being a GM-less game you are going to get lucky streaks where nothing bad happens. That is not a bad thing in a game as lethal as WHQ.

I think the closest to approaching WHQ in feel was Cardmaster: Adventure Design Deck on a slightly more simplistic level.

Heroquest just never had the dungeon crawler feel to it since the board was for all intents and purposes static and unchanging.

Never seen Advanced HeroQuest so I'm not sure how that compares between HQ and WHQ.
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Mark Roth
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I've posted my view elsewhere, but have never received a comment or response, so let me try again here.

I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters. Also, although I have a ton of painted figures for each of the successively more dangerous tables where you roll up monsters, I've pretty much only played the most basic scenarios with the figures that came with the base set. Maybe playing only this way has skewed my view of the game.

Still it seems to me that there are not a lot of decisions to make. The look, of course, is great and there is a certain thrill to being swarmed over by successive waves of monsters, but is it really that hard to figure out what your optimal strategy should be? I've likened the game to Avalon Hill's B-17, where you get jumped by lots of enemy fighters, but how you handle them becomes pretty much automatic and doesn't require any particularly hard decisions.

By contrast, a game like Space Hulk requires many decisions, some agonizing, on almost every turn once the game gets going. WHQ, not so much.

Not to say that WHQ can't be fun playing with a group in the right frame of mind. And while a lot depends on the rolls of the dice, I don't see it as game-breakingly luck-dependent: you must move and fight the characters the right way. It's just that the right way isn't particularly hard to figure out, nor are there tempting alternatives.

Does anyone else experience this? Is it simply the way I play it?
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Kevin Outlaw
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Space Hulk is a two-player tactical game. You can't compare it to a game like Warhammer Quest which is more about the experience.

WHQ is a dungeon crawler - it's not really about optimal strategy. It's about killing monsters and taking their stuff. The secret to WHQ's greatness is that fat "roleplaying" book that comes in the box - once you are stringing together campaigns and watching your hero grow, it really gets fun.

Most dungeon crawlers are the same really. They have different levels of fiddliness, but it all comes down to move to a space, fight a monster, take his stuff, move to another space, and so on. The thrill is in what stuff did you get, and how long will you keep it before some bad luck on the way to town results in you being mugged.

WHQ - it's big, but it ain't that clever. I loved it. I foolishly sold it to fund going to university. I await the reprint
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John "Omega" Williams
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Lack of options is pretty much what a dungeon crawl is all about. This is exactly the same in say any given computer RPG where you are stuck in hallways fighting. Inch forward, take out the next batch of foes. repeat till get to end boss.

Thats why they are called crawls... aheh...

Add in the skills from the RPG book and your options expand a little but. Mages especially become more viable once they have access to all those spells.

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Luke Stirling
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The meaningful choices in WQ are largely strategic ones. Namely what you choose to do with your loot, when you level up, what to sell and what to keep, etc.

I actually credit WQ for improving my role-playing game sessions, because it scratches the power gaming itch in a situation that is nothing but power gaming and lets me de-emphasize that kind of thing when playing a proper RPG.
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I've never considered WHQ a Dungeon Crawl (unless you're playing with a GM). It's a Dungeon BASH!!! (and the best of them!)
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Kevin Outlaw
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Styfen wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Heroquest just never had the dungeon crawler feel to it since the board was for all intents and purposes static and unchanging.

Never seen Advanced HeroQuest so I'm not sure how that compares between HQ and WQ.

AHQ is a more complex version of HQ with modular boards, a different stat system and just like HQ there is a requirement for a GM. Which of course means it doesn't land in the same category as WHQ.


AHQ actually has full solo rules included in the box. They aren’t great, but as everything is generated by rolling on tables (including monster AI), you can play without a GM.
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roth wrote:
I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters.


Mate, I love Warhammer Quest despite its faults. But if we only played your way - without the campaign rules - I'd probably never play it again. To review WHQ from the basic game alone is like reviewing a movie from just watching the opening credits. Maybe if you update your review to factor in the full game you might generate some comments/responses?
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Chris Leigh
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I definitely see both sides of the argument, Roth is right that the base game can end up pretty bland, I feel that the beauty of the game is that the bland games are quick and you can always play again, and the law of averages means it won't stay bland for long.

The roleplay side of things really adds another dimension to the game too, I've only begun on it, but when my stalwart dwarf lost all his damn armor to a lightning bolt, and then stupidly gave MY hard won treasure to some sick village I was mad!

To lose the random event problem there is nothing stopping you customising either. I have been skimming over Deathblow recently and they really emphasise that they want people to tweak the game to reflect what they're after. My only real grumble is the rooms apart from the flavor text are quite bland, so now i'm thinking of making some dungeon tiles with a bit of furniture and instead of a random event triggering specific things will happen, you could theme for dungeon type too:

Tombs - skeletons/zombies/mummies jump out at you and u can loot them for treasure
Squig pen - obvious what attacks here
Treasure room/ Armory - guarded but a choice of goodies.

Anything like that would certainly add flavour and it would be a bit like GMing rooms, and then random dungeon cards would determine if they came out.

just my musings.
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Ian McCarthy
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ninjadorg wrote:
roth wrote:
I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters.


Mate, I love Warhammer Quest despite its faults. But if we only played your way - without the campaign rules - I'd probably never play it again. To review WHQ from the basic game alone is like reviewing a movie from just watching the opening credits. Maybe if you update your review to factor in the full game you might generate some comments/responses?


He doesn't get many comments or responses because this game, despite its rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase, is dead in the water. I hope Games Workshop reprints it so that a new generation of fans can own the game without facing the gauntlet of scalpers, but, as we know, that company is not exactly open about what's going to be reprinted.

How does the campaign system alleviate the problem of getting "jumped" by a bunch of random monsters?
 
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Zoran Bosnjak
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roth wrote:

I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters.


If you are not playing campaign, you are not playing it way it was designed to play. It is completely different beast. There are no decisions to be made with single game, but at later levels there are completely different monsters with monster bossess and you have to make a lot of right tactical decision, pushing your warriors the right way at the right time or you simply cannot win.

Try it yourself - for example simulate 4th level of dungeon. Level up your warriors to 4th level, roll 3 times on treasure tables for each warrior and draw 3 treasure cards for it, and try those monsters. THEN you will see agonizing decisions
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shishmish wrote:
roth wrote:

I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters.


If you are not playing campaign, you are not playing it way it was designed to play. It is completely different beast. There are no decisions to be made with single game, but at later levels there are completely different monsters with monster bossess and you have to make a lot of right tactical decision, pushing your warriors the right way at the right time or you simply cannot win.

Try it yourself - for example simulate 4th level of dungeon. Level up your warriors to 4th level, roll 3 times on treasure tables for each warrior and draw 3 treasure cards for it, and try those monsters. THEN you will see agonizing decisions :)


Can you give a few examples of these agonizing decisions?
 
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Well, you are usually surrounded by few waves of monsters, especially in the last room. Melee units in first line, behind them ranged and a boss with spellcaster behind them all, add some big bad monster who jumps in when you roll another 1 as the first fight goes for few turns. You have to decide how to keep big bad monster out of your badly injured warrios (it has greater initiative thus steps near you as soon as there is available space) and trying to get close or kill very nasty bosses on the other part of the room...

Edit: lot of usually
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KenToad wrote:
He doesn't get many comments or responses because this game, despite its rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase, is dead in the water.


Did you draw "rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase" from somewhere outside the numerous eloquent and civil responses in this thread?
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Mark Roth
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I appreciate the responses to my description of my experiences with WHQ. Thank you all. I suspected that a lot of the fun with the game comes from playing it as part of a campaign and including more of a role-playing element. Shishmish's suggestion is one I'll probably try the next time around -- elevating some of the characters and the level of monsters they face at the outset. Believe me, with the amount I have invested in this, what with the figures and the painting, I'd like nothing more than to become hooked on the game.

For the first time, I may also have a group that can meet on a regular basis and may be willing to become involved in a campaign. (Most of my regular gaming is with Napoleonic miniatures, and the group with which I play those games is not really able to take on additional gaming time for a WHQ campaign.) Before committing the new group to what may become an extended campaign, though, I sure would like to experience an aspect of WHQ at the tactical level that offers a little more challenge than what I've seen just playing the basic game. Shishmish's suggestion may be a way to experience that. I also welcome any other suggestions.

Thanks all.
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ninjadorg wrote:
KenToad wrote:
He doesn't get many comments or responses because this game, despite its rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase, is dead in the water.


Did you draw "rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase" from somewhere outside the numerous eloquent and civil responses in this thread?


Rabid was mostly directed at your insipid suggestion that one cannot make a perfectly valid criticism of this game without having played the campaign.
 
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KenToad wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
KenToad wrote:
He doesn't get many comments or responses because this game, despite its rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase, is dead in the water.


Did you draw "rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase" from somewhere outside the numerous eloquent and civil responses in this thread?


Rabid was mostly directed at your insipid suggestion that one cannot make a perfectly valid criticism of this game without having played the campaign.


Good God. Seriously?

I think what Ninjadorg was saying is that the game is flawed, but it has merits, and if you want to generate some in-depth serious conversation regarding potential strategies (which is the question he was responding to) then you need to look beyond the basic game which does, indeed, only provide limited strategic options (not that there are that many strategies in the "full" game either). I don't believe there was any slight here.

Anyway - back on conversation. WHQ really is quite a silly luckfest, but it is huge amounts of fun as long as you don't take it all too seriously. I strongly recommend playing campaign rules with a GM. Lots of people see this as a GM-less game, and while it can be played that way and is fun that way, I don't think you are getting the most out of it that way.
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KenToad wrote:
Rabid was mostly directed at your insipid suggestion that one cannot make a perfectly valid criticism of this game without having played the campaign.


No offense, but it's like commenting some game after playing with kids set of rules, instead of full version. You really have to try higher levels.

I have made a simple but effective program in .NET which generates encounters from the book and tracks exp (money). Higher level encounters are really tedious to track, and that is my only gripe with the game.

As Carbon Copy suggested, WHQ is really silly luckfest, but a great experience. But I tend to recommend gameplay without the DM. If you really have a dedicated DM, you are better with any game of DnD/Pathfinder/other full blown RPG, which I consider the best experience of any boardgame, or any game whatsoever.

Just one advice: Wizard HAS to start the game with cure wounds spell. You really don't stand a c chance without it.
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blunder1983 wrote:
I definitely see both sides of the argument, Roth is right that the base game can end up pretty bland, I feel that the beauty of the game is that the bland games are quick and you can always play again, and the law of averages means it won't stay bland for long.

The roleplay side of things really adds another dimension to the game too, I've only begun on it, but when my stalwart dwarf lost all his damn armor to a lightning bolt, and then stupidly gave MY hard won treasure to some sick village I was mad!

To lose the random event problem there is nothing stopping you customising either. I have been skimming over Deathblow recently and they really emphasise that they want people to tweak the game to reflect what they're after. My only real grumble is the rooms apart from the flavor text are quite bland, so now i'm thinking of making some dungeon tiles with a bit of furniture and instead of a random event triggering specific things will happen, you could theme for dungeon type too:

Tombs - skeletons/zombies/mummies jump out at you and u can loot them for treasure
Squig pen - obvious what attacks here
Treasure room/ Armory - guarded but a choice of goodies.

Anything like that would certainly add flavour and it would be a bit like GMing rooms, and then random dungeon cards would determine if they came out.

just my musings.


There are TONS of fan-based rules/scenarios on the web. Nothing new under the sun as it were:

Warhammer Quest Runboard

Warhammer Quest Customized

The Museum

The Imperial Vault

The Pit

Cutlass's Warhammer Quest Page

Old Warrior's Stronghold


Each one of those has links to other WHQ sites as well.
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KenToad wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
roth wrote:
I have not played WHQ a lot, and my games have all been standalone games -- never part of a campaign or a series of games where surviving characters can acquire new skills and "power up", so to speak, for subsequent encounters.


Mate, I love Warhammer Quest despite its faults. But if we only played your way - without the campaign rules - I'd probably never play it again. To review WHQ from the basic game alone is like reviewing a movie from just watching the opening credits. Maybe if you update your review to factor in the full game you might generate some comments/responses?


He doesn't get many comments or responses because this game, despite its rabid and apparently dwindling fanbase, is dead in the water. I hope Games Workshop reprints it so that a new generation of fans can own the game without facing the gauntlet of scalpers, but, as we know, that company is not exactly open about what's going to be reprinted.

How does the campaign system alleviate the problem of getting "jumped" by a bunch of random monsters?


Seems like quite a good discussion happening right now?!
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shishmish wrote:
KenToad wrote:
Rabid was mostly directed at your insipid suggestion that one cannot make a perfectly valid criticism of this game without having played the campaign.


As Carbon Copy suggested, WHQ is really silly luckfest, but a great experience. But I tend to recommend gameplay without the DM. If you really have a dedicated DM, you are better with any game of DnD/Pathfinder/other full blown RPG, which I consider the best experience of any boardgame, or any game whatsoever.

Just one advice: Wizard HAS to start the game with cure wounds spell. You really don't stand a c chance without it.


I definitely agree that you will get a better "experience" with D&D or similar, but really the "roleplay" title on the second WHQ book is a bit of a misnomer. WHQ is still a board game at heart, with a DM who actively wants to kill you.

In D&D the DM is out to tell the story, but if you want to play against someone who is trying to win, then WHQ is the way to go (or at least, the way I used to play it!). A lot of people want the trappings of a roleplaying game without actually roleplaying!

And I will always recommend playing with a DM because although I quite like co-op games against AI, I will always prefer fighting a real opponent who can go "off the rails."

As for the wizard - that squishy guy needs all the help he can get!
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KenToad wrote:
How does the campaign system alleviate the problem of getting "jumped" by a bunch of random monsters?

Quick answer, it doesn't. Long answer, the campaign system provides a context and investment in the outcome so that these unexpected climactic moments feel more exciting than annoying. The threat can be mitigated slightly by stockpiling powerful one-time effects for when things go wrong, but it's a limited mitigation at best.

The reality is that moments where survival is nigh on impossible are going to happen, and if that's not an appealing aspect of the game to someone, odds are they are going to find WQ far more annoying than fun in the long run. I don't see it as a flaw in the game, merely a limitation that makes it particularly enjoyable for some, but less so for others. If that makes me a "rabid fan", then so be it. It is in fact my favourite game, but I don't play it with everyone I play board games with. It's a game that appeals to a certain kind of person, and I am well aware of that.
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This is what I was talking about. Data is stored in xml file so you can put custom monsters. It speed up our gameplay gazillion times, and you don't need to flip through copied monster tables. I don't know if I can upload it to a games page, I don't track issues with GW, but anyone can PM me and I will send it. Some old .NET framework installed is enough (sorry, windows only). I can provide even that few lines of source code
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shishmish wrote:

This is what I was talking about. Data is stored in xml file so you can put custom monsters. It speed up our gameplay gazillion times, and you don't need to flip through copied monster tables. I don't know if I can upload it to a games page, I don't track issues with GW, but anyone can PM me and I will send it. Some old .NET framework installed is enough (sorry, windows only). I can provide even that few lines of source code :D


I did something similar with a spreadsheet in Google Docs. It allowed me to edit the default monster tables so that I could delete or make substitutions for the entries that I currently lack models for. Monster stats are lookups from a master table, and the d66 table is generated by a formula. I made it so that when a monter appears more that once on a table it becomes part of a range rather than separate entries, keeping it compact.

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