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Zpocalypse» Forums » General

Subject: New backer levels- my concerns rss

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Phil Davies
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I have been considering backing this game for the last few days or so it has been on Kickstarter. I am a big fan of the whole zed setting and this game looks like it may offer something that my various other zed related game don't, however the latest KS update has made me a bit concerned as to where this project is headed.

I'm sure, like me, you like to get your hands on the various promo items that are released for games. I've certainly seen plenty of posts from people upset about the fact that Essen releases come with various promos that those of us who don't attend will most likely miss out on. Certainly some Kickstarter releases has had flak for releasing certain items as Kickstarter only exclusives.

Zpoc launched with various pledge levels with various items available (as most KS projects do). Basic pledge is $55. $75 gets you a dice tower and custom dice. No problem so far; if I wanted the dice tower and dice I can pledge for them, but they don't offer anything more than 'chrome' to the game.

Todays update announces that at $25k all backers will get a bonus weapon card, however, those at the higher $75 pledge level will also receive an extra 4 double-sided game map-tiles.

On top of this they have also added some new pledge levels: $100 grants you access to a Tactical Squad Board, again just chrome, not vital to the game.

A further level at $125 will get the backer another 4 tiles (for a total of 8 double-sided tiles and another weapon card. So the game completist is looking at paying an extra $50 to own a complete game, and that is those that are already backing at the $75 pledge level, if you are at the basic, $55, level then it weighs in at an extra $70!

I dunno, maybe it's just sceptical neurons firing in my work addled brain, I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise.
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Wesley Swingley
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I tend to agree with you. I am a backer at the $55 level and I'm VERY excited about the game, but I'm a bit miffed at missing out on game components merely because I don't want a superfluous dice tower.
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Scott M.
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I F-ING HATE exclusive components.
I was loving the game until i saw that...Shite bites and pisses me off..

Well done , ill take my zombie loving back to Flying Frog.
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Greg R.
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I backed at the $75 level and I'm not really a game completest so I'm happy with the stretch perks offered. That said, I feel bad for the $55 level backers who are getting assed out of a stretch goal. Not a good PR move IMHO since the most backers of the campaign fall into that level.

/my $0.02.. take it or leave it
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Matt Evans
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To me this kind of thing is the very nature of Kickstarter. Look at it this way...

Everyone who has made a pledge at the various levels ($55 and up) was perfectly happy with the game components as they were listed (otherwise why would they be pledging?).

Everything added after the fact is pure gravy (or chrome as you put it). Yeah it might be bringing the price up a bit to get in on some of the upper tier exclusives, but you don't HAVE to buy them. There's a good chance you'll be receiving additional content just from hitting the stretch goals.

Anyway, my point is the game is has been designed and balanced around the original components (which again you agreed to pay that price for in the first place) Anything else you get is just a bonus on top of that. If you don't want to pay for the big extras, you'll still be getting a complete game.

Exclusives are one of the best parts of Kickstarter. If you want to throw in a bunch of extra cash for a project you're really into, you get to walk away with a bundle of exclusives for helping those guys get off the ground.
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Sam London
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I agree Matt. The extra awesomeness is not required by any stretch and is just trophy stuff for the people who want to see the game do well that badly. I have to admit I upped by funding level to 125 after it became available but in truth I am still skeptical. Does this mean that you get 2 copies of the 4 tiles from the stretch reward so you can have all 8 locations on one map? In truth I am also confused why there are a limited number of 125$ backer slots...
 
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Phil Davies
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I agree with both of you. We as pledgers (or potential pledgers) are taking the risk with effectively buying an untested game. We have only seen prototypes (albeit v attractive ones but still not the finished article that will be available later one). So some form of recompense in the form of promotional items is important I feel

What I feel most uncomfortable with is the price hike that appears to be happening, most KS projects I've seen (and backed) may ask for extra cash for sleeves or custom dice, but this one seems to be offering extra "game" at a substantial premium.

Even if backers pay extra for bonus promotional game components, Zpoc is asking for an extra $20 from $55 backers for an extra 4 tiles and then an extra $50 from $75 backers for another four tiles and a new weapon card.

These prices seem a bit out of step with the product supplied.
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Dave H
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I supported them at the $75.00 level and they really upset me when they announced different stretch rewards for different supporter levels and even added different levels. I'm not a completist, it just feels like they're 'pulling a fast one' on those that supported them. I may back out my support.


edit- Phil your last post hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to get across. Thanks!
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Wesley Swingley
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I'm also a current supporter of Gunship: First Strike! and the difference in tactics is quite clear. Thus far Steve Wood has made it crystal clear to all Gunship backers at which levels they will be entitled to stretch rewards. In his case, essentially anyone supporting high enough to earn a game box will earn all stretch rewards.

I assumed at the $55 level for Zpoc I would be entitled to stretch rewards the same as everyone else, but it is very disappointing to see tiered stretch rewards.

As an earlier poster said, we are certainly earning a complete game regardless, but poo-pooing on any of your backers because they didn't pay "quite" enough is not a smart business tactic imho.
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Matt Evans
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To be honest, another $20-50 for extra tiles or weapons IS a pretty steep in terms of pricing. I'm not really sure how else to put this, but you don't HAVE to spend the money to get those extras. As you said, it's just 4 additional tiles. YES, it's expensive in terms of cost / reward. But if there's people willing to help contribute to the project to get those exclusives then more power to them.

As far as saying you'll back out...I just don't get it. You're telling me you didn't already like the game before dropping $75 down to support it? Right now you're getting more than you originally thought. I don't see the problem.
 
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Ian Luxmoore
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My main gripe is that I wish Kickstarter campaigns didn't come across as if they were making it up as they went along. If you know what the stretch rewards are going to be then say so from day 1 so everyone can plan around them. If you don't then do some planning before you put it on kickstarter.
I am not sure what value there is in torturing those who come on board early with hidden surprises along the way, especially if it might influence you pledge decision.
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Sam London
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Honestly I do not see what all the fuss is about, and I never do when this argument comes up (as it does often in our hobby). I am a psychopathic collector and must have everything. If anyone should be pissed about the the new price to get all the components it should be collectors like me who are nuts enough to actually pay for it. I suppose gamers like me who just can't and won't spend the money can be a little miffed too. I just have never understood people who dislike games with exclusive content just on principle. If you don't want it, don't get it. That being said I am a little bothered by the advent of the 125 pledge level. It would be a safe wager though that if all the stretch rewards were given to people at the 75 pledge level (and it just became the game+stuff pledge level) not many would say boo. That type of setup is common among many kickstarter projects. In that case it is really just game pledge level cost + premium for promos. When you really break it down, that is still all it is, we're just arguing semantics.

EDIT: Obviously when you are putting a project on kickstarter, and you have a ton of ideas for stretch rewards you want to put up, you cannot list pledge levels with rewards relying on a certain level of funding existing before it happens. That being said, that is once again why the 125 level bothers me, as that does not appear to be relying on 25k of funding and seemed to be triggerd just by reaching 100%.
 
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Piotr Burzykowski
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Exclusive game components have made a lot of people who didn't take part in previous funding projects very disappointed.

Game components reserved to pledge levels well above the base game have a similar effect.

However, having stretch goals with rewards limited to pledge levels well above the base game pledge is a terrible idea. The message to supporters at the base game pledge level is clear: "Your money helped us get over the line, but it's not enough to get you the full line of stretch goodies."

edit: typos
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Jeff Gracia
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Hello all,

I want to first thank you for participating in this project, we still have a ways to go and with your help we can shape it into something fantastic!.

Let me clearly show you each pledge level:
Below you will see we are adding 2 things at 25k
A new card which will be included in the main game by your vote at $55. And a new set of tiles for the $75 level, again by your vote.



Now, after talking to the manufacture and working out all the numbers I have been able to add a new level which I thought you all would love.

This $100 level includes a special squad board which is in addition to the main game. This is YOUR personal squad board.
This is limited due to each printed board will be different.
$125 level currently adds in another set of tiles and another card.


The 250+ level adds another additional survivor card. So now you and your buddy or.. even your mom can have a character card if you so choose.
 
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Wesley Swingley
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Thanks for coming on here to clarify Jeff, but may I ask: What is the reason for not including the 4 x tiles with the $55 level?

I understand the limitation of distributing personalized survivor cards or unique squad tiles, but it seems to me and others on here that the $55 level, which will be the vast majority of backers, is getting hosed right out of the gate.

We all love the way the game looks and look forward to receiving it, but I would urge you to be careful in managing the stretch bonuses. Treating every backer level differently is not the best solution, at least in my opinion.
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Phil Davies
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Jeff, thank you taking the time to post, but at the risk of sounding antagonistic, I'm not questioning what the new pledge levels are but the reasoning behind them.

I, like some of the others who have posted here, like to have all promotional items for a game (whether is a good thing is a topic for another debate)

Unfortunately it would appear that Zpocalypse has put this goal out of my reach as I can neither afford nor justify the $125 (plus UK shipping and customs charges) it will cost to buy the game and it's promos, and that isn't to say the price doesn't increase further as new items become available as it just has done.

I won't rule out buying the game when it is commercially available through usual distribution channels just because it won't have these promotional items, but there will always be that feeling that I don't have the 'whole game'. I feel that this current reward strategy is damaging to the project as potential backers such as me will now walk away.
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Dave H
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The reason I may back out is.

"just feels like they're 'pulling a fast one' on those that supported them."

If $75 isn't good enough, maybe the $75 isn't needed. Just how I feel, no need for you to worry about it or understand.
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Jeff Gracia
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Rookie Mistake!!!!!

Hey guys if was NEVER our intention to slight our supporters. I hear what your saying will look at what we did and see if we can make sense of it. Chalk it up to rookie error.

As always feedback is appreciated.
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Hugh G. Rection
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sincere8868 wrote:

Hey guys if was NEVER our intention to slight our supporters. I hear what your saying will look at what we did and see if we can make sense of it. Chalk it up to rookie error.

As always feedback is appreciated.


From observing other successful Kickstarter campaigns...

Kickstater exclusive promos are given to all Kickstarter backers who pledge enough for at least a copy of the game.

Extra game components based on stretch goals are included in all copies of the published game.

Bonus game content (such as expansions that the public will have to pay for at a later time), non-essential items or custom game components are generally available at the higher price tiers.

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The War Chief
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I was about to join at the $75 level, but now it's off my list.

I really do not like the idea of having to pledge so much to get all the tiles. The customized components I can live without, but getting shut out of getting the four extra tiles, no matter how much they raise, rubs me the wrong way.

This has pissed off a lot of the existing backers, drives off potential backers, and is definitely the wrong way to structure stretch goals.

I have pledged 7 projects so far, including the D Day Dice line for life, but Zpocalypse won't be the 8th. And that's too bad. I was really looking forward to this one.

I hope the company reconsiders this decision and comes up with a better stretch goal system.

Jack
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David Boeren
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I hadn't realized these changes had occurred.

I'm interested in the game and the genre, and have been tracking it for a while now. As soon as it went up on Kickstarter I rushed to check it out as I was very interested in buying a copy.

At that time, my conclusion was that no reasonable level of support offered anything of any value to me so my best option was to skip Kickstarter and buy it cheaper online later on. No disrespect meant to the artists, but wallpaper and a print aren't something I need. I'm a gamer, I want game stuff like extra components or at least component upgrades.

Now, there are some of those available with the new levels. I like to think that means they realized that the current goals weren't serving some of their audience. But it still doesn't seem to offer what I want at a price I want to pay. $70 over the base game for 8 tiles isn't reasonable for me, and I don't really care about a dice tower or custom dice.

Well, let's just see what they do though before getting too hot. They're aware that there's some dissatisfaction so I expect we'll see an update soon.

Edit: Just in case they're looking and want to know... What I'd like is a level that has just the base game and the tiles. Don't need anything else. Offer that for a decent price and I'm suddenly interested again, pending reading the full rulebook once it's available.
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Matt Evans
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dboeren wrote:


Well, let's just see what they do though before getting too hot. They're aware that there's some dissatisfaction so I expect we'll see an update soon.


This. Give it some time guys, Jeff has already responded saying they're evaluating things.
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Wesley Swingley
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Thanks for looking into it Jeff! I look forward to seeing what you guys do as this Kickstart progresses.
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Tim Myers
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dboeren wrote:
...
I'm interested in the game and the genre, and have been tracking it for a while now. As soon as it went up on Kickstarter I rushed to check it out as I was very interested in buying a copy.

At that time, my conclusion was that no reasonable level of support offered anything of any value to me so my best option was to skip Kickstarter and buy it cheaper online later on. No disrespect meant to the artists, but wallpaper and a print aren't something I need. I'm a gamer,

...

I also was interested in the game and when it went up on Kickstarter I also went to check it out ,,, but was disappointed in the pricing and packages.

I know that the designers put a lot of work into it but it seems (to me) like the price is high for what you get compared to other Kickstarter projects that I backed. I like the 8 dice in the $75 package but I really do not need another dice tower, wall paper and a signed print and the $75 price tag would make it the most expensive single copy of a game that I would have gotten on Kickstarter.

I may still get it on Kickstarter but ... I may just wait until I can get it online. Zpocalypse really does look like a game that the people I play with and I would like but the price tag and packages has me shying away right now.
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Brian Beyke
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I really want this game, and I want to back it, but I honestly don't know at which level. Every little bit more is just that...a little bit more. Do I need the custom dice for gameplay? Would I use the dice tower besides this game? How much more will the extra tiles add to my gameplay? Lots of questions I don't know how to answer, and 70 dollar difference is pretty hefty.
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