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Subject: ancient discovery discussion rss

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Ok, i've been having eclipse foe a week now, and i got to say after 5 games(3 with 2 players,1 with 3 players,1 with 4 players) we (my gaming group and me) have some issue concerning the ''ancient discoverys''.Right after the first game, it seems to us that those upgrade were unbalanced, but we decided to test the game more anyway, but all of the 5 games had the same problem: the lucky player who happen to posses those upgrade before everybody else or posses more of them or were the fastest to get them, happen to be the winner. I was wandering if you guys who played this game had the same problem? After discussing this issue with my gaming group, we realise why those upgrade were trully that powerfull. First of all those ''technology'' are stupidly good, a research that good would cost something like 16 research point or so and some are just imcomparable with the other technologies. The second point and by far the most important one is the ''bypass action'' issue, it takes an action and ressources since taking action cost some money plus research point as i mentioned earlier an upgrade that good would cost a lot of research point, after researching you would have to upgrade your ship with it so more ressources. So in other words those discovery give you 2 free actions and a ton of ressources. My third point is the fact that, if your lucky you can have access to those very early in the game were none other player may have anything to level with you in wich case giving the lucky player an enormous edge on the game. Like i said before all of the games we played the ''lucky'' player managed to win, period.

My gaming group and i decide for now to simply ban those upgrade, but im not sure it is the right choice, my friend got the idea: those discovery could be exclusive to you when you discover them but you would have to research it, any taught?

So in conclusion, thanks for reading i hope this could help stimulate a debate on this otherwise almost perfect game, so far i've been enjoying every games eaven with that issue.

thank you and good night.
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Antti Autio
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You'll just have to play the game more and you'll find many of those so-called "luck" issues become less and less important as you learn to play better and adapt to different situations and strategies.
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John Sheppard
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Not sure I agree with the OP. I've seen the 'lucky find' thing happen, but I've seen those upgrades remain undiscovered/in the box too.

If it really is a concern, rather than leave them out or make up some arbitrary research number for them, I'd make up a house rule where the technology is always auctioned to the highest bidder, with the bids being any combination and amount of the base resources. If the 'finder' wins the bid, the payment is split among the other players (round up) and if another player bids highest, the 'finder' gets the resource(s).

Also, consider the possibility of not letting any player have more than +1 ancient upgrades above the player with the least amount of ancient upgrades. That forces the players to gain upgrades somewhat more evenly.
 
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Ian Kelly
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If you search back through the forums, you'll find this has already been discussed a lot. I think most players (myself included) don't find the ship part discoveries overpowered for the most part. For myself, I take the 2 VP more often than not.

The big limitation with all of them is that it's just one part. In order to place more than one, you would still have to go and research a comparable part -- and for any particular category of part, I'm generally going to want to use at least two or three, possibly more. So in the long run it's not really saving me all that much in actions and resources, because I'll likely end up spending them on a similar tech anyway.
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Daniel Hammond
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I have played 34 games so far. I find that luck is an integral part of the game. It is the systems you find, the battle dice, the techs that get drawn or not drawn and for the most part it can be mitigated. I have had horrendous draws on my starting tiles, but by taking resources on discovery tile I normally would never consider taking I can build a ship and kill some ancients or get a key tech (often disks or an advanced tech) to kick start my game.

The game is all about points, getting points is managing risk and resources, but it isn't a solitaire game. The biggest mistake I see when playing with new players is when one player gets aggressive on a neighbor, especially one is good position to win, that should be the time to strike. In a normal game, you move into my area, I build defenses, you move, I move to reinforce... it is a push. But when I am being attacked on 2 fronts by 2 players that changes everything. You might not even be the one that ends up winning, but the guy who was poised to win usually won't be in as good a shape the following turn.

The center space works out very well in this game by limiting flow out of it. Most roads lead to Rome. So when the Romans push out, that often makes a vacuum somewhere else.

Out of those 34 games I feel 1 was decided by an early discovery tile draw and it just happened to be the perfect draw in an unusual situation. Most importantly it was a 2 player game and there was nothing I could do militarily and the tiles around my homeworld were also very poor. In the end I fought him once and managed to win the battle (but I picked the battle after he was committed). Final score, I got crushed.

I find too often new players don't mitigate risk enough. I will rarely go after Ancients with less than 2 upgraded crusiers and by upgraded I mean usually 2 of the following 4 things: 2 improved hulls, plasma cannons or double ion cannons, a shield and/or the ability to hit on at least a 3+. Unless my situation is so hopeless a risky gamble is the best I can hope for.
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Purple Paladin

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Like stated above, and like stated in so many other "hey, something is OP or Lucky" threads, the more you play, the more you see the opposite may be true.

What happens in this case is everyone takes the parts, since they think they are so "Lucky" to find them. And since nobody takes the 2VP, you don't ever get the chance to notice how many times a player can actually win by taking the 2VPs.

Same happens with the so-called bad system draws. Most people don't realize that it's a quick/free 2VP or Resourse in most cases.
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Aaron Bevan
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From my very first game I fell in love with all the strategy the game provides. Yes there are random elements but they are very balanced and keep the game fresh by not allowing you to always do the same old thing.

Random /= luck based winners

Its funny to see some people say winners are determined by Discovery tiles while others say its the good planet systems.

I love how Alliances/Betrayal is done just right. Tensions build as your close ally is neck and neck always looking at each other with a weary eye to see if they are going to betray you or leave an opportunity for you to betray them. And then at the end of the game no one is bitter because the game has a built in mechanic to punish the betrayer.
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i don't have a problem at all with random, ressources is cool, hex are random but bothing compared to the discovery, what im trying to say is, the discovery are game breaker when the first one is taken all the remaining of the game change and therefore all the player if they want a chance at winning they have to stomp the lucky player.

the hex even if there random or the random ressource boost aren't game breaker ther just''bonus'' and i dont have any problem with a litte random but this aint no litte...

i will test more but im really not convince, so far all of my game as been driven by ancient dicovery.arrrh(wanted to try this one)or this one ninja
 
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Daniel Hammond
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yougo wrote:
i don't have a problem at all with random, ressources is cool, hex are random but bothing compared to the discovery, what im trying to say is, the discovery are game breaker when the first one is taken all the remaining of the game change and therefore all the player if they want a chance at winning they have to stomp the lucky player.

the hex even if there random or the random ressource boost aren't game breaker ther just''bonus'' and i dont have any problem with a litte random but this aint no litte...

i will test more but im really not convince, so far all of my game as been driven by ancient dicovery.:arrrh:(wanted to try this one)or this one :ninja:


If they dominate your game, you are definitely doing something wrong. The only ones I usually flirt with are the engines and under some rare circumstances the +3 computer or -3 shield. Getting tech is much better, because my 2 +2 computers are better than your +3 computer. If you waste a lot of actions attacking before you are ready or upgrading and reupgrading maybe those tiles can shift balance, but in a game with skilled players it is often better to take the +2 VPs.
 
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yes and im agreing, ancient discovery are good, but there is some of them that are very good, i did other games since my first post and i can tell you taht the movement upgrade is by far the most broken. The +3 is very good too the fact is when you discover those technologie and they upgrade your ship right now is op i think. The other upgrade are good and im still thinking those are a crazy advantage but they don't give you the game, tho themovement are simply crazy good since you can ''snipe'' others terretory
 
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Purple Paladin

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omg. I could have sworn there was a thread where someone was complaining that the +movement discovery was the most useless.

Somebody give me a noob vaccination. Please!

Seems every "complaint" thread on this game is about how someone lost because some part of the game was "unbalanced".

Perhaps they can make a playstation version of this game to stop all the complaints; where every player only has to spam the X button to play. Course, they'd complain how the fastest X presser always wins, and the X button is unbalanced. shake
 
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Ian Kelly
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Purple Paladin wrote:
Perhaps they can make a playstation version of this game to stop all the complaints; where every player only has to spam the X button to play. Course, they'd complain how the fastest X presser always wins, and the X button is unbalanced. shake


But the X button is unbalanced. It's the only one of the four buttons that does not depict a closed, regular shape. whistle
 
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as a matter a fact yes the x button is op wich is sad. On another note why are you taking this way to personal? Me i will just ban the ancient discovery and thats it, it will not alterate the game and i think its simply op for all the reason iv'e stated above, it just dosent fit for me, after a couple more game the issue is still there, for example yesterday i choose the 2 points instead of the discovery it was the 3shield but it was simply to late my friend had the movement and neutron bomb !?!?!? wtf am i supposed to do againts this? He snipe some of my best territorys iv'e destroy a lot of ship but the damaged was done his movement action was way out of control and even he told me that there were nothing i could do, he was having 5 mov with is small ship for god sake
 
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Ian Kelly
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yougo wrote:
it was simply to late my friend had the movement and neutron bomb !?!?!? wtf am i supposed to do againts this? He snipe some of my best territorys iv'e destroy a lot of ship but the damaged was done his movement action was way out of control and even he told me that there were nothing i could do, he was having 5 mov with is small ship for god sake


There are two possible counters to this:

1) If the border is not large, put your ships on it. He can't move deep into your territory if his ships get pinned at the border.

2) Otherwise, save up your resources, and then when he attacks, build your ships directly in the attacked hexes to defend them efficiently.
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yes but its 1 ship pin 1 ship you wont manage the race since he have 5 mov there some move were you wont be able to pin him and even tho you pin him you will loose some zones so from the point he start moving its finish with the +4 mov is taking into account he move freely on the map he can avoid everything quite easely and he gain a spatial dominance position. well anyway those arent in my box anymore i wont let my game experiance be spoil by 6 little counters
 
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David Wiens
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yougo wrote:
therefore all the player if they want a chance at winning they have to stomp the lucky player.


Sounds like a viable strategy to me.
 
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Ian Kelly
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yougo wrote:
yes but its 1 ship pin 1 ship you wont manage the race since he have 5 mov there some move were you wont be able to pin him and even tho you pin him you will loose some zones so from the point he start moving its finish with the +4 mov is taking into account he move freely on the map he can avoid everything quite easely and he gain a spatial dominance position.


That sentence is mostly incomprehensible to me. What does having 5-hex movement have to do with whether you are able to pin his ships? He still can only move 2 of them (or 3 if Terran) with a single action.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Peristarkawan wrote:
yougo wrote:
yes but its 1 ship pin 1 ship you wont manage the race since he have 5 mov there some move were you wont be able to pin him and even tho you pin him you will loose some zones so from the point he start moving its finish with the +4 mov is taking into account he move freely on the map he can avoid everything quite easely and he gain a spatial dominance position.


That sentence is mostly incomprehensible to me. What does having 5-hex movement have to do with whether you are able to pin his ships? He still can only move 2 of them (or 3 if Terran) with a single action.


And in addition if your border is open with his that is your fault as well. Typically I have 2 hexes that control the access to my entire area. If I can make it work I only have 1. 1 Int stops 1 dreadnought. On your 2 entry tiles you should build 2 starbases each and 1 Int. By controlling access to your areas you force him to fight you, by having overwhelming forces there, you also can counter attack.

Lets say I have 2 access points into my systems each with 2 cruisers, 2 interceptors and 2 starbases. He moves in 2 units, then I move my interceptors forward to stop other units from reinforcing the battle or once he is fully committed I move my still unpinned units to take his now undefended areas.

The counter to mobility is static defense (a stack of ships where he can enter) which requires resources and planning or flexibility (the ability to react to where he is attacking with a move or a build) which requires money and influence disks.

Sometimes I will sit on upgraded dreadnoughts and starbases (unbuilt) so wherever I am attacked I will build sufficient forces to destroy him, and sometimes I will have 8 interceptors with improved hulls and plasma cannons which is a perfectly acceptable way to say come waste your 50+ material fleet on my 24 material fleet.

 
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stephen biggs
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yougo wrote:
My third point is the fact that, if your lucky you can have access to those very early in the game were none other player may have anything to level with you in wich case giving the lucky player an enormous edge on the game.

The only discovery close to that good is the ion computer. No one can match an ion computer prior to turn-3/4.
Simple answer to that is to not spend $50 (or whatever the current ebay price is) on the supernova expansion. I'm sure the profiteers on e-bay would hate that solution
A possible option if your play group finds discoveries too random is a house rule to draw two discoveries and choose the best. That will reduce the luck element.
Currently the Draco advantage is small enough that it compensates for being picked first, and hence having a useless choice of research turn-1. But if you restricted the other races to only gaining 2-vp's when they killed an ancient. The Draco would become by far the best race.
 
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