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Subject: Player Order Balance rss

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Matt Hiske
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Kentwood
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Subject: Player Order Balance

I still think there is advantage to going first and a big disadvantage to going last. With so many years behind this game I am surprised that they didn't balance the player order somehow.

I personally think that the starting deployment units should be increased starting with the second player.

2nd Player- Increased by One
3rd Player- Increased by Two
4th Player- Increased by Three
5th Player- Increase by Four

These units would be deployed as the player wishes at the start of the game. The second player would place the extra unit first and it would proceed clockwise. All initial untis would be placed first as per the rules and then the extra units.

I would like to gather ideas and suggestions here.



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Dave C
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matthiske wrote:
I would like to gather ideas and suggestions here.


Risk Legacy has solved this problem quite well. If you want the mechanic, geekmail me.
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Los 28
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matthiske wrote:
I am surprised that they didn't balance the player order somehow.

They did. I hope you are playing the game correctly, because some of the players start the game with a card(s). But even with a card or two, I think that there still needs to be additional "adjustment" to help balance the order-of-play.

There are three things (A, B & C below) that we do when we play to alleviate the problem:

A.) According to the official rules, players #3 and #4 start the game with one card. Player #5 starts with two cards.

B.) We also do exactly what you have written:
matthiske wrote:
The starting deployment units should be increased, starting with the second player.

2nd Player- Increased by One
3rd Player- Increased by Two
4th Player- Increased by Three
5th Player- Increase by Four

These units would be deployed as the player wishes at the start of the game. The second player would place the extra unit first and it would proceed clockwise. All initial units would be placed first as per the rules and then the extra units.

C.) During the initial placement of troops onto territories, use this special process when playing a four or five player game.

In a four player game : When player #3 and #4 are selecting their first territory, they actually select two territories (so, one territory with capital & one troop, and then immediately select another territory with one troop). (By doing this, player #3 and #4 will start the game with one additional territory, compared to players #1 and #2. If you dont do this, then player #1 and #2 start the game with one additional territory compared to the other players, and this is not fair.)

In a five player game : The same privilege explained above goes to player #4 and #5 only (instead of player #3 and #4). (This will give player #4 and #5 one additional territory compared to the other three players.)
meeple




Additional notations (update) :

Los28 wrote:
B.) We also do exactly what you have written:
matthiske wrote:
The starting deployment units should be increased, starting with the second player.

2nd Player- Increased by One
3rd Player- Increased by Two
4th Player- Increased by Three
5th Player- Increase by Four

These units would be deployed as the player wishes at the start of the game. The second player would place the extra unit first and it would proceed clockwise. All initial units would be placed first as per the rules and then the extra units.

With more and more games played, we have discovered that we are giving players #3 through #5 too many starting (additional) units. Instead, we have now gone to this assignment of additional units :

2nd Player- Increased by One
3rd Player- Increased by One
4th Player- Increased by Two
5th Player- Increased by Two

But then again, sometimes, we dont give players #2 through #5 any additional units (in other words, we dont do step "B" at all). But we do initiate step "A" and "C" in our games.

It seems that if you incorporate all three steps (A, B and C) into each game, that this is sometimes just too much. That is, it actually gives the last two players too much assistance, and players #1 and #2 are "stalled" in their game play.


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Mark Delesdernier
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Metairie
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What about the variant that mandates players turn in a card to achieve an objective?
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Alejandro Lizarraga
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Los28 wrote:
It seems that if you incorporate all three steps (A, B and C) into each game, that this is sometimes just too much. That is, it actually gives the last two players too much assistance, and players #1 and #2 are "stalled" in their game play.


This is exactly right, therefore I spent some time tweaking and balancing what would be a fair start for all player turns.

I have put this into practice for some games already, and it seems to work pretty well.

- All players start with the same number of armies. The balance will be made through number of territories and starting territory cards.

- The extra territories for the last 2 players are not chosen at the beginning like suggested previously, but chosen at the end: After 40 territories have been occupied and only 2 are remaining, skip the first players and the last 2 players get to chose among those last 2 territories. This makes it more fair, since choosing 2 territories from the beginning is a big advantage.

3 players
- Every player starts with 14 territories
- Player 3 starts with 1 territory card

4 players
- Players 1 and 2 start with 10 territories
- Players 3 and 4 start with 11 territories
- Player 4 starts with 1 territory card

5 players
- Players 1, 2 and 3 start with 8 territories
- Players 4 and 5 start with 9 territories
- Players 3 and 5 start with 1 territory card
Why players 3 and 5? Simple:
Player 3 will start with card
Player 4 will start with territory
Player 5 will start with territory + card

Let me know your comments
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Los 28
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Axel wrote:
Let me know your comments


Interesting.
meeple

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