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Bar-Lev: The Yom-Kippur War of 1973» Forums » Rules

Subject: Conflict Edition Rules Help rss

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Mark Humphries
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I posted this query on the Consimworld Bar Lev topic, thought I would try here as well.

I haven't read these rules in decades. As is often the case with John Hill's designs the rules can in places be quite ambiguous and open to interpretation. Since I tend to prefer tighter rules I'm going through them with the intent of doing a rewrite that reorganizes them and irons out the rough spots.

With that in mind, here's my first query. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

If I've understood correctly during each player's Direct Fire Phase, both Arab and Israeli units may fire at adjacent units. The general sequence is: both sides' First Firing units attack, then all First Fire results come into effect, then both sides Simultaneous Firing units attack, then all Simultaneous Fire results come into effect.

Each Direct Fire Phase is followed by an Advance Phase where both players may advance units into newly vacated hexes that those advancing units attacked.

In the Advance Phase the players may, if they wish, use a die roll to randomly determine which player will be the first to perform all of his advances for that phase.

Did I understand correctly?

If so, in what order are attacks performed in each of the Direct Fire Sub-Phases (First Fire, Simultaneous Fire)? Do the two sides alternate attacks or does one side do all its attacks, followed by the other side, with the first side determined randomly in a manner similar to how the Advance Phase is handled?

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Kim Meints
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Hey Mark

You do First Fire then Simultanous Fire.

In the First Fire Phase it's the unit conditions listed in case A thru D which can make the First Fire attacks..
Now per the Offical Rules Clarications/Errata any unit that was killed by First Fire is Immediately Removed from the map without getting off a shot.

Then after First Fire Phase you conduct Simultanous Fire. Now it doesn't matter which side fires in the Simultanous Fire Phase because even if a unit was wiped out(per the rule) it still fires back and causes damage

So you would make a First Fire with units listed in A-D and any kills are Immediately removed then you make your Simultanous Fire
but each side gets to fire even if killed

Does that help?
 
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Mark Humphries
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jackiesavon wrote:
Hey Mark

You do First Fire then Simultanous Fire.

In the First Fire Phase it's the unit conditions listed in case A thru D which can make the First Fire attacks..
Now per the Offical Rules Clarications/Errata any unit that was killed by First Fire is Immediately Removed from the map without getting off a shot.

Then after First Fire Phase you conduct Simultanous Fire. Now it doesn't matter which side fires in the Simultanous Fire Phase because even if a unit was wiped out(per the rule) it still fires back and causes damage

So you would make a First Fire with units listed in A-D and any kills are Immediately removed then you make your Simultanous Fire
but each side gets to fire even if killed

Does that help?


Thanks Kim!

In what order are the First Fires conducted by both players? I may want change my fire(s) depending on the results of your fire(s), there could be an information advantage to seeing your results before choosing my fires.

Also I believe if there units who qualify for First Fire on each other, they can First Fire at each other simultaneously but are removed before the Simultaneous Fire Sub-Phase.

Even though the results are applied to all units at the end of the Simultaneous Fire Sub-Phase, there's still an information advantage to seeing your opponents results just as with First Fire.
 
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Kim Meints
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Mark

First Fire list the units that qualify

A. Isreali on a Bar Lev hex firing on a Canal hex

B Any Syrian that is on Ft. Hebron

C.Any unit with a height advantage

D.Any unit in a Town/City hex

These would fire fist on an enemy unit.

If any units both could make a First Fire against each other as per the rules then they cancel each other out and can't fire until the Simulataneous Fire Phase

Now a unit that isn't listed in one of the 4 above conditions can't fire back in the First Fire Phase.They take their losses and would have to wait until the Simultaneous Fire Phase to make their attacks.
Also you may wish not to have a unit fire in the First Fire Phase so they can combine with other friendly units to fire in the Simultaneous Fire Phase.

Yes it's an advantage firing in the First Fire Phase to get in a kill before you both fire in the Simulataneous Phase. But the losses won't be as severe as when combing units in the Simulataneous Phase.I guess it comes down to how the situation looks.

Heaven's, It's been decades since I played the Conflict edition since I switched to the GDW/Conflict version when that arrive on the stage .But even that hasn't seen the table in eon's
 
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Mark Humphries
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Kim,

I'm not sure if you've answered these parts of my question:

In what order are attacks performed in each of the Direct Fire Sub-Phases (First Fire, Simultaneous Fire)? Do the two sides alternate attacks or does one side do all its attacks, followed by the other side, with the first side determined randomly in a manner similar to how the Advance Phase is handled?

Even though the results are applied to all units at the end of the Simultaneous Fire Sub-Phase, there's still an information advantage to seeing your opponents results before you commit your own attacks.
 
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Kim Meints
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Mark

Units listed in the First Fire get to fire first ,then you go to Simulteous Fire. I guess you can alternaste but any looses don't count until they get to fire back

I don't know how else to explain it to you
 
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Brian Hansen
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I am just about to play a game:
-There is a classic boardgame convention that the phasing player gets to determine "his" attacks in any order. I would adjudicate that the phasing resolves his first fire attacks (in any order) and the "non-phaser" then does his in any order. (There are a number of advantages such as the attacker can keep his attack plan straight in his head without being distracted by the non-phasing player ruminating, etc.)

There are other rules holes -some minor.
1. Where is the Jordanian air force based? I say on Damasc, airport.
2. Do the Egytian para's drop once per unit, or is it 1-3 units once per game. I say once per game.
3. I say Syrian forts can be destroyed in the same manner as Bar lev line.
4. I say a Bar Lev line hex is no longer relevant for V.C, if it has been destroyed.
5. What is the status of unreleased Arab reserves? I say they defend normally and can only attack(direct fire) enemy if their hex is attacked.
6. Jordian reinf. are capricious. I house ruled that between Oct7-13 they come on with gradually increasing force levels. If not on by Oct 14 they come on with a force level (die roll equivalent) of 6.
 
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Ron Glass
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craterous wrote:
I am just about to play a game:
-There is a classic boardgame convention that the phasing player gets to determine "his" attacks in any order. I would adjudicate that the phasing resolves his first fire attacks (in any order) and the "non-phaser" then does his in any order. (There are a number of advantages such as the attacker can keep his attack plan straight in his head without being distracted by the non-phasing player ruminating, etc.)

There are other rules holes -some minor.
1. Where is the Jordanian air force based? I say on Damasc, airport.
2. Do the Egytian para's drop once per unit, or is it 1-3 units once per game. I say once per game.
3. I say Syrian forts can be destroyed in the same manner as Bar lev line.
4. I say a Bar Lev line hex is no longer relevant for V.C, if it has been destroyed.
5. What is the status of unreleased Arab reserves? I say they defend normally and can only attack(direct fire) enemy if their hex is attacked.
6. Jordian reinf. are capricious. I house ruled that between Oct7-13 they come on with gradually increasing force levels. If not on by Oct 14 they come on with a force level (die roll equivalent) of 6.


I played this a lot years ago, and it recently hit the table again. Great memories.

Not sure I can answer all your questions, but based on my gaming time, I'll give it a try.

1 - Jordanian air force stays on their chart just like the other airforces. No air untis are "based" on the map.

2 - Correct. Each unit has the ability to drop once, subject to that front having the air superiority requirement. All 3 could drop same turn, or each could drop separately on different turns, or any combo of that, as long as each unit only drops once.

3 - Yes. They are more like the fortified kibbutzes.

4 - Correct. Hex still exists, but not as a Bar-Lev hex. I have a bag of colored smaller counter I put in them to note the Bar-Lev defenses are destroyed. If playing on plexiglass, a china marker can be used to "x" them out. But be careful to meet the "not move for 1 full turn" requirement to destroy. Occupying on 1 turn, then leaving on the next turn, will NOT destroy the Bar-Lev defenses.

5 - Recommendations have been made in various posts that any of the reserve counters not even be put on the map until their turn of arrival as that represents the turn they are assembled and equipped. Until then they are a growing mob of disorganized troops with variable levels of equipment and ammo. Best not to even go there and try to quantify the effectiveness, so leave them off. That's how we always played. And if their appearance location is occupied, then they appear adjacent, or as near as possible. Be reasonable.

6 - Our group has always disagreed with the wide range of potential Jordanian support. They did have a historical participation, though limited, as they had their own issues on their own front. I am trying to refind the research our group did in the 1980's that establish a more accurate historical-based range of how much and when. This came up again in our recent game and I could not find the info I thought I had, so I will post that when I find it.

Hope that helps.

Ron Glass
 
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Ron Glass
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Mark_WH wrote:
Kim,

I'm not sure if you've answered these parts of my question:

In what order are attacks performed in each of the Direct Fire Sub-Phases (First Fire, Simultaneous Fire)? Do the two sides alternate attacks or does one side do all its attacks, followed by the other side, with the first side determined randomly in a manner similar to how the Advance Phase is handled?

Even though the results are applied to all units at the end of the Simultaneous Fire Sub-Phase, there's still an information advantage to seeing your opponents results before you commit your own attacks.


I'll add to this only that ALL direct fires (first and simul) are simul in their phase.

As a matter of our typical game play, First Fires are assumed to be done by the defender (non-phasing player) first, as he is in a defensive, non-moving position shooting at units moving up to attack. Then the attacker (phasing player) does his first fires, though there are often not too many of these. Call it a house rule, or create your own rule you and your opponent agree on, but they are all simul.

And yes, First Fires between two adjacent units on each other are rare, but possible, and the rules say they cancel out and are done instead as simul fires.

Hope that helps

Ron Glass
 
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Rick Westerman
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I am planning to play Bar-Lev again tomorrow in remembrance of John Hill and so am going through some of these old posts.

Our group -- which helped play test Bar-Lev eons ago -- has both the attacker and defender think what about what units are firing against what enemy units. Then we both say what we were planning. We do this once for first-fire and then once for simo fire. This is akin to the Air Module where both sides think about what they are going to do -- which planes are air super and which planes are ground attacking which hexes -- and then we both deploy our units.

But then we are trusting group. As the Air Module says, in a grudge game or in close calls, writing down air placement (and by extension whom is firing on whom) would be a good idea.

BTW: Looking forward to my game tomorrow. It has been at least 5 years since we last played.
 
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