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Subject: Combat Commander: Pacific, Commands & Colors, or Memoir '44? rss

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Salim Khoury
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So I need people to make the case for me to invest in Combat Commander: Pacific rather than one of the Richard Borg variants (C&C: A, C&C: N, M44).

I thought I found the holy grail last week when I discovered M44 (sorry I'm a newbie, cut me some slack), but after some digging around it became obvious it was not so simple a decision. Discovering CC: P was ranked much higher on the War Games ranking I now feel compelled to return all my unopened M44 expansions and invest in CC: P.

What's the deal? Why is it so much better than a Richard Borg system of games?

Are they that different?

It seems CC: P only comes with static maps as opposed to rearrangeable hexes (which at first thought seems like a negative).

HELP!?!?!

 
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Steve Bishop
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Stick with M44 as an easier route into wargaming.

Then when you find its not 'meaty' enough trade it away on ebay (fetches a decent price - certainly in the UK) and decide then which of the many tactical WW2 games you want to invest in.

This will give you time to explore the more complicated options and there are tons of threads that will give you comparisons between them all.

As you can tell from my avatar I'm particularly partial to a certain series of games but in the end it's down to your own preferences and we are very lucky to have so many great games to choose from.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.
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Darren M
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Absolutely nothing wrong with starting out with M'44. It's a great gaming system. I've owned M'44 + expansions, C&C, BattleLore and Battle Cry and they are all great games.

Yes they are relatively simple compared to most wargames. That's a big part of their appeal... you set them up and play. The rulebooks in M'44 specifically aren't tomes to be digested over several weeks. The rules can be learned and taught in a very short period. The game looks great with nice components and there are a multitude of scenarios to add to the replay value.

You haven't made a mistake... just play the game and enjoy it. If you want to try deeper, more complicated wargames in the future you certainly can but there is a great game to be found within that M'44 box you have as well.
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Aaron Silverman
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I wouldn't worry too much about online ranking numbers. I would go to the GMT website and read the Combat Commander rules. See what you think. As others have mentioned, it's significantly more involved than Memoir.

Do you have a wargaming partner? Talk to them about their preference as well. If you don't have a partner and will be playing solitaire, then I would recommend a system that doesn't involve cards so deeply. I'm partial to Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1, but something from the Lock 'n' Load series (e.g. Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes) might be more appropriate to start with, since even the ASL "Starter Kit" is a pretty complicated game.

Eventually you'll get the bug and buy them all anyway. devil
 
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Aaron Silverman
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I kind of limited my response to WWII squad-level games. If you're interested in other topics/ scales as well, there may be other options that would be good for you.
 
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Drake Coker
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The answer to "Combat Commander or ...?" is always Combat Commander.

That being said, CC is very different from the other two games you mention. The others are quite a bit easier to learn and "lighter" games in general.

I concur that checking out the CC rules online first is a great idea. If it doesn't look like more than you want, then CC is a deep, rich game.
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Salim Khoury
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Thanks everyone, this has been really helpful. Here's my update...

Yesterday I went out and bought

-C&C: N
-C&C: N EXP 1

I also bought

-CC: P

So now I have some clarity. Need to get a few plays in (Zero plays so far) but I dedicated 8 hours yesterday to getting familiar with both games. I believe C&C: N will hit the table first and it should be tonight, I am excited!!

I'll explain some reasoning and offer my own feedback...

I chose C&C: N over C&C: A for a few simple reasons.

1) I just can't get excited about the C&C: A theme, the Napoleonic era was more attractive
2) It seemed C&C: N was modeled after Ancients and wasn't too far of a stray (In other words it plays more like Ancients than M44).
3) I am giving the designers the benefit of the doubt that with each iteration / new theme they learn from the past so I am hoping this will be even better than or at least as good as Ancients.
4) It is most accessible and all coming expansions will be attainable

I decided to also get CC: P because...

1) It is very highly ranked (as is CC: E)
2) I needed to see for myself if this was maybe even better than DT, or C&C: N

Here is where I am now...

-Damn those stickers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Once I got past sticker shock , and assembled my first scenario something surprised me...I thought "how elegant this game looks." (I was very skeptical about the wooden blocks thing). Part of my attraction to M44 was the interaction with the pieces and the maps. I initially thought the blocks wood (I mean would) be one of the barriers to enjoyment, I now know they will actually be one of the reasons I will enjoy the game more. They just work, 4-5 blocks fit way better than 3 M44 tanks in a hex, let me assure you. You also get the benefit of colors and depth without dedicating 6 months to painting miniatures (not dissing painting, I'd love to if I had the time)

-CC: P has amazing depth and will probably get some play time in the future but I was really disappointed in the physical design.

Cons

> I think it is a mistake for the pre-printed maps to be so small, and all the creases in the map are annoying
> I thought I wouldn't like wooden blocks, what I learned is that I really don't like interacting with miniature markers/chits/mini stamps

Pros I see as of today (ZERO plays with either game), just rules analysis & assembly so my opinions will surely change some...

> More depth (maybe) and a potentially better set of rules to play by than C&C: N albeit tougher to get up and running, as expected, more depth/complexity = thicker rule book (usually).


You guys were all a big help here, thanks and keep the ideas flowing!!!
 
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Mark Buetow
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Salimo wrote:


-CC: P has amazing depth and will probably get some play time in the future but I was really disappointed in the physical design.


Why? CC has great components for a wargame. Nice looking maps, good chits, clear rules and illustrations. What's not to love?
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Salim Khoury
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Malacandra wrote:
Salimo wrote:


-CC: P has amazing depth and will probably get some play time in the future but I was really disappointed in the physical design.


Why? CC has great components for a wargame. Nice looking maps, good chits, clear rules and illustrations. What's not to love?


Again, it is not being dismissed and I admit my opinions are a little hairsplitting. Maybe I have bigger hands, I just found it annoying to pick up and move the little units with weapons on them etc...Big picture it is very apparent that this is a strong game, really strong.

I am certain that with more time and familiarity it will get real play time if I can find a partner.
 
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Jason Albert
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Salimo wrote:

> I think it is a mistake for the pre-printed maps to be so small, and all the creases in the map are annoying


Purchase a standard-sized $8 plastic poster frame from Target or Walmart. It fits perfectly over the map (in either orientation) and the track display. Crease problem solved.

Then, later, you can get your player aid cards and OBs laminated. And you can buy counter trays. And sleeve your cards. And buy deck boxes. And then those wooden rib thingies to hold your cards while you're playing.

The game pimpin’ never ends, really.

And I'm with Mark -- visually, CC is as good as it gets.
 
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Salim Khoury
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AlbertaClipper wrote:
Salimo wrote:

> I think it is a mistake for the pre-printed maps to be so small, and all the creases in the map are annoying


Purchase a standard-sized $8 plastic poster frame from Target or Walmart. It fits perfectly over the map (in either orientation) and the track display. Crease problem solved.

Then, later, you can get your player aid cards and OBs laminated. And you can buy counter trays. And sleeve your cards. And buy deck boxes. And then those wooden rib thingies to hold your cards while you're playing.

The game pimpin’ never ends, really.

And I'm with Mark -- visually, CC is as good as it gets.


Awesome idea, my brain doesn't think that way, I'll get some of that stuff today, great idea. I want to be able to play this game trust me!
 
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Edward Wehrenberg
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Sounds like you have a nice little collection starting. Awesome games - enjoy!
 
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Drake Coker
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Malacandra wrote:
Salimo wrote:


-CC: P has amazing depth and will probably get some play time in the future but I was really disappointed in the physical design.


Why? CC has great components for a wargame. Nice looking maps, good chits, clear rules and illustrations. What's not to love?


Oh yea, CC has very nice components for a wargame. But take away "for a wargame", then they're pretty mediocre devil
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Chris Friend
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Salim - i just started with CC. Bought CCE on Jul 17, CCM on Jul 29, and just yesterday, Aug 9, CCP. Within the next month, I'll get everything else (except Paratroopers of course). For the last year or so, I've really been enjoying M44, in fact I have everything you can get. I'll never get rid of it. My point is, it's not this or that, it's enjoy both!
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Matt Jolly
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I agree with Friendc,

you may end up enjoying both.... and they sure are different.... and whilst the CC series is fantastic, it is far more complex than M44, in my opinion far harder to solo, and has no tanks......

Maybe something like Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42 or its ilk would be a good mid point with great components for a wargame...?

Cheers,

Matt
 
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Salim Khoury
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With these two new replies coming in I thought I'd provide an update and closure of sorts regarding the OP. A couple of you (Malacandra & AlbertaClipper, I think) have participated in a few of my more recent threads and may already know some of this, nonetheless, here's what's transpired since March...kinda fun to return a few months later and add color, my earlier comments seem really novice, as some of you correctly pointed out.

Anyway, C&C: N has hit the table only two times not because it was disliked but because I was blown away by the Combat Commander Series in a big way.

Since my previous reply I have bought the entire Combat Commander system with the exception of the Combat Commander: Battle Pack #1 – Paratroopers which is on pre-order through the P500. I have also bought FF:GD becasue after the experience of Combat Commander it is likely I will buy anything with Chad Jensen's name on it and have with the exception of Urban Sprawl.

I have been mostly playing CC:E plus expansions & battlepacks logging over 12 games. This has been my first hex & counter game and my opinions have certainly changed. This is the first game I clipped corners for, I also bought the plexi as suggested and sleeved the fate decks. Ultimately I also bought some custom LITKO markers and super pimped the game replacing all the track, smoke, blaze, & spotting markers with acrylic. In short it looks and plays awesome!!!

With so much time devoted to prepping the game and the time it took to get the rules straight I wanted to get my value so we made a deep dive into CC:E and have yet to surface. In the meantime I recently started reading the FF:GD rules in preparation for our first introductory game in a couple of weeks.

I have been pleasantly surprised with the experiences of my entry into wargaming, I have No Retreat! The Russian Front en route as it seems to be different enough to warrant it's way onto my shelf. It will be my first larger scale wargame (I know FF:GD is a larger scale game as well). I have considered the Conflict of Heroes series many times as well as other popular games such as Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles but my current opinion is that I won't play them, just not enough time.

I think I will structure my Wargame commitment to a single system per period and/or a single system per scale (meaning I don't want multiple squad level games etc.). So I am trying to learn about other games and scales and commit to them, that's why No retreat is en route as I think it is platoon level and it is certainly very well liked.

It is likely that C&C: N will represent my only entry into the Napoleonic Period though I will soon own Napoleon's Triumph simply because it seems like I should. I prefer modern warfare and while I like the game I can't see my self playing it too much.

I will also probably only play M44 with complete newbies looking to suck them into the genre as I think it is a great entry point.

Bottom line, it has been a very fun summer and I only wish I could find more F to F opponents. If you are in Houston and aren't crazy then PM me!!!
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And *another* one sucked into the abyss . Glad you like CC...it's a wonderful system, and really is unique compared to similar games. I love the game myself, and have just about everything published for it, including most of the scenarios available in the C3i mags.

You mentioned in your most recent post about picking one system and sticking with it...that's a wise decision, otherwise you'll end up like me--trying to learn multiple similar systems at once, and mastering none of them .

Having said that, I would recommend at some point taking a look at the Lock 'n Load system as well. It's another take on the same thing as CC, minus the cards. In that sense, it's more traditional, but the rules are not any more complicated than CC's. It does have tanks/AFVs (the only real consistent knock against CC), covers multiple time periods (WWII, Vietnam, Falklands, mythical WWIII, Somalia), and has *the* best maps in the genre, IMHO.

It looks like you're well on your way into your wargaming journey...only one thing remians: head on town to Home Depot or Lowes and get yourself some plexiglass for the CC maps, and then pop onto Amazon and grab some Plano 3701s for counter storage.
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Salim Khoury
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madDdog67 wrote:
And *another* one sucked into the abyss . Glad you like CC...it's a wonderful system, and really is unique compared to similar games. I love the game myself, and have just about everything published for it, including most of the scenarios available in the C3i mags.

You mentioned in your most recent post about picking one system and sticking with it...that's a wise decision, otherwise you'll end up like me--trying to learn multiple similar systems at once, and mastering none of them .

Having said that, I would recommend at some point taking a look at the Lock 'n Load system as well. It's another take on the same thing as CC, minus the cards. In that sense, it's more traditional, but the rules are not any more complicated than CC's. It does have tanks/AFVs (the only real consistent knock against CC), covers multiple time periods (WWII, Vietnam, Falklands, mythical WWIII, Somalia), and has *the* best maps in the genre, IMHO.

It looks like you're well on your way into your wargaming journey...only one thing remians: head on town to Home Depot or Lowes and get yourself some plexiglass for the CC maps, and then pop onto Amazon and grab some Plano 3701s for counter storage.


Thanks John, I actually already have my plexiglass for both CC & FF:GD. I sorted all armies in GMT trays and found that to be plenty efficient and usable. I even have all CC maps stored flat in a portfolio binder to reduce creasing, this was per another user's suggestion.

I totally forgot to mention the Lock 'n Load family, it's also on my radar. I am also interested I playing a non CDG, so it may be the favorite...
 
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Salimo wrote:
So I am trying to learn about other games and scales and commit to them, that's why No retreat is en route as I think it is platoon level and it is certainly very well liked.


Platoon-level No Retreat! might be a bit much to handle, with its 50,000 counter sheets.

For platoon-level WWII, You're pretty much looking at TCS from the Gamers, Panzer Grenadier from Avalanche, and Nations at War from Lock 'n' Load. The three systems are very different, but I think the rulebooks are all available online.

If I were to recommend one, I'd probably go with PG, as it has by far the most variety of any game aside from ASL (I recently got the module on a 1941 war between Peru and Ecuador!). TCS is a cool system, but it's more involved and the game options are somewhat limited. I haven't played NaW so can't comment on it.
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Hi,

I am in the same situation as the OP (used to be in), so I thought I'd post here rather than making a new thread.

Similarities between the OP's situation and mine:
1. I am a newbie to hex wargames (although I have played heavy games such as Twilight Struggle, 1830 etc.)
2. I am trying to decide which system of wargame to purchase first.

Differences between the OP's situation and mine:
1. I think C&C and Memoir44 would be too light for me to enjoy (just going by what I have read on BGG).
2. I most definitely need a game that can be played from start to finish in 4-5 hours max.

All that being said, the wargames that have caught my eye are (in random order):
- CC-Pacific
- CC-Europe
- CoH:Storms of Steel
- Napoleon's Triumph

Would someone be so kind as to explain the differences in the 'feel' of the games mentioned above? I don't mean rule specifics. I mean in terms of things like is it fast paced, or does it slowly build tension over the course of a few hours? Is it different each time you play? Or are there set opening moves (for example soviet couping iran in AR1 in TS)? How important is the element of luck?

Of the 4 games, I am leaning slightly towards CC-Pacific since you can play as the Indian and ANZAC troops and this interests me, and Napoleon's Triumph since you are not limited to playing it with just 2 players.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Mark Buetow
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scuudz wrote:
Hi,

I am in the same situation as the OP (used to be in), so I thought I'd post here rather than making a new thread.

Similarities between the OP's situation and mine:
1. I am a newbie to hex wargames (although I have played heavy games such as Twilight Struggle, 1830 etc.)
2. I am trying to decide which system of wargame to purchase first.

Differences between the OP's situation and mine:
1. I think C&C and Memoir44 would be too light for me to enjoy (just going by what I have read on BGG).
2. I most definitely need a game that can be played from start to finish in 4-5 hours max.

All that being said, the wargames that have caught my eye are (in random order):
- CC-Pacific
- CC-Europe
- CoH:Storms of Steel
- Napoleon's Triumph

Would someone be so kind as to explain the differences in the 'feel' of the games mentioned above? I don't mean rule specifics. I mean in terms of things like is it fast paced, or does it slowly build tension over the course of a few hours? Is it different each time you play? Or are there set opening moves (for example soviet couping iran in AR1 in TS)? How important is the element of luck?

Of the 4 games, I am leaning slightly towards CC-Pacific since you can play as the Indian and ANZAC troops and this interests me, and Napoleon's Triumph since you are not limited to playing it with just 2 players.

Thanks in advance!


As you've no doubt seen by now, you're getting a lot of responses over in the CCL Europe thread.
 
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Yup, thanks.
 
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