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Subject: New Fan Cards: Quicksilver, Recycle, Reversal rss

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Mike Young
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I am working on my next print and play fan expansion, a companion to my already-released The Books of Magic. The Books of Magic deals with curses and the trash. The Scrolls of Power expands that and adds more cards that have potions in the cost. There are 23 new kingdom cards in this expansion, 2 durations, 5 treasures (including a treasure/attack and a treasure/reaction), 2 pure victory cards, 2 action/reactions, 11 actions, and a wonderful action/reaction/attack/victory card. All these cards have been playtested, although not as much as a commercial available game.

And the time has come to release them for comment. It is a harsh and difficult process, but it ultimately makes the cards better. I'll be releasing them three or four at a time in new threads. People sometimes ask me to make it all one thread, but if I do that then I don't get comments on the later cards. I appreciate all comments. Thanks folks!

By the way, I think these three cards may be the most controversial of the set. They've been playtested, but really with only 2 players at a time. I'd really like to see some results for them for 3 and 4 player games and the offer of Geekgold still stands for anyone who playtests and reports back.


Quicksilver
Treasure - 2 - Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting into his or her hand. If any do, +2. - Cost P.

I like this card. It causes choices. Do I gain a Silver knowing that I'm probably letting my opponent get a really good card this turn? Do I buy this card since it will give my opponents silvers? What happens if I play multiples of these in a turn? Wait, what?

This is my belief on that, and there may be argument. For each Quicksilver that you play on your turn, your opponents may choose to gain a Silver. However, if even one opponent gains one Silver due to a Quicksilver, each of your Quicksilvers pay off. I can see this being interpreted differently, but that's my current ruling. If people make good enough arguments otherwise then I can change my mind.


Recycle
Action - Return up to three cards from the Trash. +1 for each card returned in this way. - Cost P.

To Return a card means to place it back in its supply pile. Just like Ambassador does. Like the cards from The Books of Magic that gain things from the Trash, Recycle is not to be made a Kingdom card unless you have other Kingdom cards that trash cards.

There is no doubt about it: this card will make the game take longer. Also, it requires that cards be Trashed to be useful. I could change it so that you gain the card rather than return it, since most cards in the Trash aren't that great. But sometimes they are and then this card is really powerful. Hm.


Reversal
Action - Reaction - +2 Cards. Discard 2 Cards - You may reveal Reversal from your hand when an action makes you discard cards. If Reversal is one of the cards discarded, you may draw the same number of cards after discarding.

I really like Reversal. It is an interesting Reaction and reacts well with itself. I thought it might be too powerful or weird, but then I saw Tunnel. No, you cannot reveal the Reversal you just played to get the cards; it is no longer in your hand. And you may reveal Reversal as many times as you want, but you still only get to draw 1 set of the cards. Reversal does stack, so if you reveal and discard several at once, you can draw a lot of cards.

And tomorrow, we do the last three cards and then we're done.
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DC
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Buggy wrote:

Quicksilver
Treasure - 2 - Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting into his or her hand. If any do, +2. - Cost P.

I like this card. It causes choices. Do I gain a Silver knowing that I'm probably letting my opponent get a really good card this turn? Do I buy this card since it will give my opponents silvers? What happens if I play multiples of these in a turn? Wait, what?

This is my belief on that, and there may be argument. For each Quicksilver that you play on your turn, your opponents may choose to gain a Silver. However, if even one opponent gains one Silver due to a Quicksilver, each of your Quicksilvers pay off. I can see this being interpreted differently, but that's my current ruling. If people make good enough arguments otherwise then I can change my mind.


You could leave it open to debate, but: If you like having each Quicksilver pay off each time an opponent gains a Silver, you could be explicit about it and remove all doubt:

"While this is in play, if any player gains a silver, +$2. Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand."

Or, to be more restricted:

"While this is in play, if any player gains a silver due to Quicksilver, +$2. Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand."
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Buggy wrote:

Quicksilver
Treasure - 2 - Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting into his or her hand. If any do, +2. - Cost P.

I don't know if I would buy this card. Generally, if I need 2$ more for a province, nobody will take the silver. If I have just 8$ (without colonies) I'm giving silver to all players. So basically, is like buying at a cost of P, that can give silvers to others. In the playtesting, have you seen a gain of 2$ that was used to buy a better card?
Of course, I suppose the right way to play it, is to play it before playing any other treasure card.
A question came to my mind. The other players choose at the same time or by turn? I understand by turn, so if the first player choose not to take de silver and the second does,, the first can't take the silver afterwards, isn't it?


Buggy wrote:

Recycle
Action - Return up to three cards from the Trash. +1 for each card returned in this way. - Cost P.


I don't think any powerful card in the trash will be interesting to take once they are in the trash (trashed gold for province in late game are no longer interesting). But I like the combination with cards like Ill-Gotten Gains when the curse pile is depleted and there are curses in trash pile. I don't think it will be a winning strategy, but a funny one. As well, I like the idea of ruining someone strategy of winning with 3 pile ending rule. Other strategies more interesting may come up with playtesting.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Yes. As it is currently written, only the Quicksilver that was played when the Silver was gained will be worth more coins. Treasure cards don't just hit the table during the Buy Phase; they are played one at a time from the hand.

When a Quicksilver is played, you may have several unplayed Treasure cards, still, like when playing Contraband. Now the opponent needs to guess if taking the Silver will push you over 7 coins. If the Silver is gained, that card's ability completes by generating an additional +2 coins. Then you can play another Treasure card and if it is a Quicksilver, it doesn't have the +2 coins.

This is exactly like playing four Mining Villages and trashing one for +2 coins, then insisting that all four produce coins.
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Mike Young
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dcclark wrote:
"While this is in play, if any player gains a silver due to Quicksilver, +$2. Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand."


Yeah, I think you have the better wording...

The new official wording is:

"Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand. While this is in play, if any player has gained a Silver due to Quicksilver this turn, +$2."
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Well, in that case, it will work retroactively ... but most likely, as soon as one hits the table, the other player(s) will choose the Silver immediately, before any others are in play, still limiting the additional coins generated to +2 total. If, however, someone wants to gain a second Silver to their hand, it'll work on the first and second Quicksilvers for +4 more (+6 total) additional coins.

While this isn't likely to happen often enough to worry about (especially since the regular treasure value of the two Quicksilvers will be 4 coins, making +4 additional coins plenty), putting two Silvers into any opponent's hand is probably giving out a Province anyway. By now, it is too late for you to generate a +1 Buy, so if you don't have one, all other players are going to grab all the Silvers they want in this hand as long as you keep playing Quicksilvers, knowing that the bonus, temporary, coins for you are worthless.

I'd keep it at +2 without making it retroactive for both reasons.
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Buggy wrote:
dcclark wrote:
"While this is in play, if any player gains a silver due to Quicksilver, +$2. Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand."


Yeah, I think you have the better wording...

The new official wording is:

"Each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand. While this is in play, if any player has gained a Silver due to Quicksilver this turn, +$2."


With this phrasing, each one will be worth AT MOST an extra +$2. It will never trigger a second time.
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Mike Young
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dcclark wrote:
With this phrasing, each one will be worth AT MOST an extra +$2. It will never trigger a second time.


Good. They were never intended to trigger more than once each.
 
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Stephen Roney
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dakcyn wrote:

Buggy wrote:

Recycle
Action - Return up to three cards from the Trash. +1 for each card returned in this way. - Cost P.


I don't think any powerful card in the trash will be interesting to take once they are in the trash (trashed gold for province in late game are no longer interesting). But I like the combination with cards like Ill-Gotten Gains when the curse pile is depleted and there are curses in trash pile. I don't think it will be a winning strategy, but a funny one. As well, I like the idea of ruining someone strategy of winning with 3 pile ending rule. Other strategies more interesting may come up with playtesting.


There could be decent cards mid-game if Remodel, Upgrade, Forge, etc are in the game. I played a two-player colony game yesterday where we almost emptied the Forge pile, but that is another story.
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Scott Heise
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Mike, again, very nice work on these cards. You've clearly put a lot of work into this. As someone who has also put together a large-scale expansion/conversion to Dominion, I know how much work it takes to put together something of this quality.

For Quicksilver, another possibility for alternate wording could be "When you play this, each other player may choose to gain a Silver, putting it into his or her hand. If any one of them does, +$2." This would make the +$2 bonus non-retroactive and non-stacking if multiple Quicksilvers are played... not sure which way you want to go with this.

For Recycle, does the player get to choose which cards to return from the Trash, or is it from the top of the Trash pile, or random?

I think Recycle needs a +1 Action attached to it to be viable. It seems to situational to me. I think the best use of this card as currently written would be to return trashed victory cards (especially Provinces) to prevent an opponent from shortening the game (and reducing the # of available VPs) by remodeling/expanding/trashing Provences and Colonies. With +1 Action, this card would have more versatility. Also, since up to 3 cards may be returned each time it is played, I think in most games the trash will get depleted quickly and once it is this card will be useless, especially in 2P games.

I'm a stickler for the wording/grammar, and the wording of Reversal's reaction ability is very awkward to me. The phrase "makes you discard" is somewhat ambiguous and ill-defined. Also, the timing of when you are "made to discard" vs when you actually discard and reveal Reversal is unclear to me and may result in confusion or unitended consequences. For example, if you must discard 2 cards from your hand as a result of Militia, are the 2 cards discarded simultaneously or at the same time?
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Mike Young
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HomerJr wrote:
For Recycle, does the player get to choose which cards to return from the Trash, or is it from the top of the Trash pile, or random?


Thanks very much. Players may choose.

HomerJr wrote:
I'm a stickler for the wording/grammar, and the wording of Reversal's reaction ability is very awkward to me. The phrase "makes you discard" is somewhat ambiguous and ill-defined. Also, the timing of when you are "made to discard" vs when you actually discard and reveal Reversal is unclear to me and may result in confusion or unintended consequences. For example, if you must discard 2 cards from your hand as a result of Militia, are the 2 cards discarded simultaneously or at the same time?


I'm always open to suggestions to make the cards clearer. Let me do an example using Militia, breaking it down step by step.

Opponent plays Militia.
Opponent gets 2 coins.
All other players must discard 2 cards.
You reveal Reversal.
You discard 2 cards, one of which is the Reversal. Order of discards doesn't matter.
You draw 2 cards.

An alternative.
Opponent plays Militia.
You reveal Moat.
Opponent gets 2 coins.
All other players must discard 2 cards, but not you because you revealed a Moat.
You may not reveal your Reversal.

Did that help?

 
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Thomas Brendel
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If I play Cellar and then reveal/discard Reversal, do I end up drawing twice as many cards as I discarded?
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Mike Young
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Squidd wrote:
If I play Cellar and then reveal/discard Reversal, do I end up drawing twice as many cards as I discarded?


Yes! Cellar makes Reversal awesome!
 
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Quicksilver: I can't say that I'd ever want to buy this as it is. "Possibly" if the gained silver didn't go into the other player's hands. Quite frankly I don't think I'd really ever want to gain a silver, I'd rather laugh at my opponent for buying a potion just to use to buy a "silver-like" card.

Recycle: A seriously problematic card. This is only useful in games where you CAN trash cards. Even then, there are few games when it would be even somewhat relevant -- with chapel and bishop and such. Then the first people to play the card get the most out of it and the next players have nothing to return.

Reversal: It seems a bit strangely worded, but it looks to have a decent purpose in some games. It 'might' be a bit on the cheap side consider how many ways there are to discard cards. It seems to have potential though.
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