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    I don't have the game in front of me so I can't give you the hero's name, but he allows you to level up another hero when you battle with him. Here's the question -- do you have to win? Can you go into the dungeon fully aware that you're going to get your ass kicked and then level up another hero afterwards?

    It sounds like a stupid question to me, but we had a guy playing that way. It seemed like a remarkably douchy way to beef up your deck.

             S.


 
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Re: One of the Hero levels up another when you battle. Do you have to win?
Sagrilarus wrote:
    I don't have the game in front of me so I can't give you the hero's name, but he allows you to level up another hero when you battle with him. Here's the question -- do you have to win? Can you go into the dungeon fully aware that you're going to get your ass kicked and then level up another hero afterwards?

    It sounds like a stupid question to me, but we had a guy playing that way. It seemed like a remarkably douchy way to beef up your deck.

             S.




In the case of Bluefire and Whetmage, no, you don't need to win. Their level-up abilities are Dungeon abilities and therefore will be activated before you select a monster to battle. The Veteran Trainer's ability, though, is a Spoils effect, which will only trigger if you defeat a monster.
 
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Re: One of the Hero levels up another when you battle. Do you have to win?
    It was Whetmage. Thank you for the clarification.

    Reward for intentionally selecting failure . . . that's a pretty solid scratch in the paint on this one.

             S.


 
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Thematically, I don't have a problem with it-- win or lose, people gain knowledge and experience by DOING, right? Learning from failure?



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Sagrilarus wrote:
   Reward for intentionally selecting failure . . .


You'll find that there are some possible rewards often in Thunderstone from going to the dungeon and failing to defeat a monster.

Sometimes you'll lose heroes which you want to lose, or items. The thing though is that you're not getting the VPs from defeating the monster and that leveling up a hero can be done in the village with a possible purchase too, so it's possible that the dungeon option isn't the best way to go. Losing in the dungeon does also allow for "wasting" a monster you suspect another player may be able to kill and get lots of VP/XP.
 
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you're aware that he still has to spend XP to level them up in the Dungeon? This is a common question/mistake with the Whetmage.
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SommerMatt wrote:

Thematically, I don't have a problem with it-- win or lose, people gain knowledge and experience by DOING, right? Learning from failure?


    Somewhat less applicable when you're engaging in mortal combat with a demon.

Luds wrote:


You'll find that there are some possible rewards often in Thunderstone from going to the dungeon and failing to defeat a monster.

Sometimes you'll lose heroes which you want to lose, or items. The thing though is that you're not getting the VPs from defeating the monster and that leveling up a hero can be done in the village with a possible purchase too, so it's possible that the dungeon option isn't the best way to go. Losing in the dungeon does also allow for "wasting" a monster you suspect another player may be able to kill and get lots of VP/XP.


    Yeah yeah. I understand the gamey aspects of it. It just seems like a slap in the theme's face. It's a move that I'd feel obligated to apologize for after taking it. You may as well be playing Canasta at that point.

Faranim wrote:
you're aware that he still has to spend XP to level them up in the Dungeon? This is a common question/mistake with the Whetmage.


    Ok, that would assuage my guilt a bit.

             S.


 
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Sagrilarus wrote:
   
    Reward for intentionally selecting failure . . . that's a pretty solid scratch in the paint on this one.

             S.




Couldn't disagree more. The more options the better.
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Luds wrote:
You'll find that there are some possible rewards often in Thunderstone from going to the dungeon and failing to defeat a monster.

Sometimes you'll lose heroes which you want to lose, or items. The thing though is that you're not getting the VPs from defeating the monster and that leveling up a hero can be done in the village with a possible purchase too, so it's possible that the dungeon option isn't the best way to go. Losing in the dungeon does also allow for "wasting" a monster you suspect another player may be able to kill and get lots of VP/XP.


In the original game, you might also want to do it to speed up the clock if you have a big lead or to keep another player from getting the Thunderstone. Course, now with the Thunderstone Keepers you might not do that.
 
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TheLongshot wrote:
In the original game, you might also want to do it to speed up the clock if you have a big lead or to keep another player from getting the Thunderstone. Course, now with the Thunderstone Keepers you might not do that.


I'm finding Thunderstone Bearers just as elusive as Thunderstones, because the game ends when they breach. If the bearer is in Rank 2 and I can't defeat it, I'll usually take on the monster in Rank 1 (win or lose), just to breach the bearer and deny the points to my opponent.
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    I'm fine with the tactical aspects. It's the wrapper they're delivered in. "I'm going to intentionally lose a battle and the result is that the monster goes away for some reason" is pretty doggone contrived. AEG usually has the thematic material worked out really well, but they must have been having a bad day when they came up with this one.

             S.


 
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Sagrilarus wrote:
"I'm going to intentionally lose a battle and the result is that the monster goes away for some reason"


Why exactly a defeat should provoke a total party kill ? Warfare from all age proved that if you're not nuking the casualties are not that big.

THe idea is more "we go to the dungeon, don't defeat him, run for our life while he run rampant". It seem fine.
 
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I have to agree with the OP on this one. However when using the avatars one could think of them as a sort of sqaud leader and then they're ordering a unit to "take one for the tean".
This is dome in real warfare, wherein the lowest ranking man may have to remove his gas mask first, charge an enemy bunker, and such as is necissary for the good of the unit and completion of the mission.
Looking at it this way may help to keep the theme alive.
James
 
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darquil wrote:
TheLongshot wrote:
In the original game, you might also want to do it to speed up the clock if you have a big lead or to keep another player from getting the Thunderstone. Course, now with the Thunderstone Keepers you might not do that.


I'm finding Thunderstone Bearers just as elusive as Thunderstones, because the game ends when they breach. If the bearer is in Rank 2 and I can't defeat it, I'll usually take on the monster in Rank 1 (win or lose), just to breach the bearer and deny the points to my opponent.


Once my friends get more familiar with TS:A, I'm going to go with the variant that if you let the Bearer escape, you can't win. I think that's a brilliant variation.
 
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CitizenKeen wrote:
Once my friends get more familiar with TS:A, I'm going to go with the variant that if you let the Bearer escape, you can't win. I think that's a brilliant variation.


Doesn't that mean you'll be stuck fighting the monster in Rank 3 over and over, until you're able to defeat the Bearer?
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darquil wrote:
CitizenKeen wrote:
Once my friends get more familiar with TS:A, I'm going to go with the variant that if you let the Bearer escape, you can't win. I think that's a brilliant variation.


Doesn't that mean you'll be stuck fighting the monster in Rank 3 over and over, until you're able to defeat the Bearer?


Or Rank 4 with Wilderness, but yes. I agree with the sentiment that the Thunderstones in Classic Thunderstone had a habit of being anticlimactic - killing a minor creature wins the game? Ugh. The addition of the Bearers was to make the ending epic. I like that. But killing the tiny guy in front of the Bearer just so the guy to your left can't kill it because you happen to be further ahead in points (so you suspect) also seems anticlimactic. So, you can't do that - everybody waits until they can kill the Bearer, resulting in an epic battle to end the game. Much more satisfying, I expect (though I haven't tried).
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CitizenKeen wrote:
But killing the tiny guy in front of the Bearer just so the guy to your left can't kill it because you happen to be further ahead in points (so you suspect) also seems anticlimactic. So, you can't do that - everybody waits until they can kill the Bearer, resulting in an epic battle to end the game. Much more satisfying, I expect (though I haven't tried).


Makes me think the rules should just be tweaked so that the game doesn't end with the Bearer breaches. He just stands there defiant, and if someone wants to end the game, they have to defeat him. Could make for some interest re-tools. I.e. if I know I'm in the lead, and want the game to end, but I don't have a deck well-tuned to defeat the Bearer, perhaps I'll race to re-tool my deck before my opponents can catch up via monsters in the other two ranks.
 
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darquil wrote:
Could make for some interest re-tools. I.e. if I know I'm in the lead, and want the game to end, but I don't have a deck well-tuned to defeat the Bearer, perhaps I'll race to re-tool my deck before my opponents can catch up via monsters in the other two ranks.


I have tried this. Surprinsigly, more often than not, nobody were able to kill the thunderstone bearer at all, draging the party without real interest.

I have seen thas with belac (the one who mind control someone) and the last doomknight used as thunderstone bearer, so maybe they are a bit strong for the variant ?
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TheLazyHase wrote:
I have tried this. Surprinsigly, more often than not, nobody were able to kill the thunderstone bearer at all, draging the party without real interest.

I have seen thas with belac (the one who mind control someone) and the last doomknight used as thunderstone bearer, so maybe they are a bit strong for the variant ?


I can see that; Belac is a tough cookie. I don't think we've defeated him yet. If I knew he were the Big Bad (we typically shuffle in the Guardian without knowing who it is), I could work toward a Spell-heavy deck, and with all heroes roughly the same attack. But for a measly 4 VP it doesn't seem worth it.

Some of the older guardians weren't necessarily more difficult to beat than the Big Bad from any given monster group; they just made life in the dungeon more difficult in general via Global effects. So it makes sense that these monsters wouldn't have higher-than-average VP. But the Thunderstone Bearer VP value doesn't seem to be commensurate with the corresponding difficulty.

I'd rank Belac as the most difficult of the three bearers, yet he is worth less than the median Guardian VP (from all sets) of 5. Contrast Belac to Guardian of Strength, who also uses my heroes against me, but without subtracting their contribution to my own attack. I can see both Belac and Guardian of Strength nearing 20 Health, yet Guardian of Strength is worth 3 VP more.
 
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The less-than-average VP value of thunderstone bearer are not too consequential if they stay at rank 1, since you can end the game when in a winning position if you keep some measure of attention to the game.

In the base rule, I do admit that the thunderstones bearer tend to be a tad weak in VP ; quite often killing the guy in rank 1 is better than taking a little time to kill the guardian.
 
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Regarding the Thunderstone Bearer I think that a simple way to avoid drawing the game out too long and avoiding the kill the weakling ahead of the bearer to end the game is to delay the breach end effect is to delay it for one round. So whomever causes the bearer to reach rank one by killing the earlier monster effectively announces that everyone has one turn left including himself before the game is over.

Maybe someone kills the bearer and maybe he gets away it adds a little more risk to the game.
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I'm not normally one for variants and home rules personally, but I think you might be right about the Thunderstone Bearers. It just feels thematically off to be deliberately letting the big bad boss dude escape and then celebrating the win.

It feels like me and my opponent are two powerful warriors, stood at the mouth of a cave, bickering about who killed the most goblins on the way, while Sauron sneaks off into the distance.
 
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Faranim wrote:
you're aware that he still has to spend XP to level them up in the Dungeon? This is a common question/mistake with the Whetmage.


Yeah, the Whetmage card really through me for a loop. First mistake I made was not remembering that a "hero" can only be leveled up once per turn. Now you've reminded me that you have to pay the XP to level up in the Dungeon also.

Never had issues remembering to pay XP in the Village so I don't know where the brain fart came from.
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    We played again and paid the xp cost for the level-up and the card seemed pretty well designed power-wise. With the xp cost in the mix it is essentially half a free turn -- take a town action AND hit the dungeon. If you're not doing something substantial in the dungeon it really doesn't matter to go there.

    When the card was played as a "free" level-up it made the dungeon path a powerful choice that ended the game early, especially if you have a couple of whetmages drawn at the same time. One whetmage levels up another. It was a dominant option.

             S.


 
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