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Subject: Defensive Redeployment rss

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Dan Likos
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My friend recently played with pygmies and realized that it was to his benefit that people attack him. He was wondering if it is legal, during defensive redeployment, to remove tokens from the board and leaving only 1 in each territory.

To clarify my question.

Say turn 1 I take 4 coastal regions, using 10 tokens. During redeployment, can you leave only one token per region and hold 6 in hand until next turn?

After some fruitless searching, admittedly not a great effort as we wished to play vs. search rules, we decided that it WAS legal.
 
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brian
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dlikos wrote:
My friend recently played with pygmies and realized that it was to his benefit that people attack him. He was wondering if it is legal, during defensive redeployment, to remove tokens from the board and leaving only 1 in each territory.

To clarify my question.

Say turn 1 I take 4 coastal regions, using 10 tokens. During redeployment, can you leave only one token per region and hold 6 in hand until next turn?

After some fruitless searching, admittedly not a great effort as we wished to play vs. search rules, we decided that it WAS legal.

Yes, this is legal.

Somehow, I missed reading the last line. You are allowed to redeploy such that you have 1 token in each region BUT one. You cannot hold the rest in hand. However, you can have 3 regions, in your example, with 1 each and the 4th has to have the remaining 7 tokens.
 
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J
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Really? I've never heard of such a rule being legal. I mean If he left 1 unit in 3 of his territories and 7 in 1 territory that's obviously fine but I thought that unless you have a power like pixies or amazons you need to leave your units on the board.
 
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david landes
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Nope. I believe all the tokens need to remain on the board with at least one in each region conquerered.
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Brandon M
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“Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game.” ― Gary Gygax
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From the Small World Rule book. I have added emphasis where appropriate.

Quote:
Troop Redeployment
Once a player's conquests for the turn have ended, he may
freely redeploy the Race tokens he has on the board, moving
them from one Region to any other Region occupied by his race
(not necessarily just an adjacent or contiguous Region)
, provided
that at least one Race token remains in each Region under his
control.


I get the following out of this section.

1 - Redeployed units can go anywhere that race has control.
2 - Redeployed units go from one region to another.
3 - You must have at least 1 unit left in each territory the race controlled at the beginning of redeployment.

I think specifying movement from one region to any other region passive excludes the tactic of removing units from the board.
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Richard Smeltzer
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It's also not beneficial to be attacked as the Pygmies. On average you break even. You do realise that you lose a token before rolling to see what you gain?
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S H
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Defensive Redeployment in SmallWorld...?
2 words in that sentence do NOT go together.

(otherwise, yeah, what they said ^ )
 
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J
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Boss Trojan wrote:
Defensive Redeployment in SmallWorld...?
2 words in that sentence do NOT go together.

(otherwise, yeah, what they said ^ )


I know!!! There should be a space between Small and World
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Jeff Dunford
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Bagpuss42 wrote:
It's also not beneficial to be attacked as the Pygmies. On average you break even. You do realise that you lose a token before rolling to see what youg gain?


Agreed. Pygmies break even on average. Off hand, the only case I can think of that it's beneficial to get attacked is if you have Immortal Pygmies... and that requires using special powers from Small World Underground. *edit* And that wouldn't be beneficial, as there wouldn't be any Pygmy units in the tray to benefit from their ability.

Using Underground special powers, Martyr Pygmies would be pretty good and might encourage others to attack, but they still wouldn't be any better than Martyr Elves, for instance.
 
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Yoff Lag
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Bagpuss42 wrote:
It's also not beneficial to be attacked as the Pygmies. On average you break even. You do realise that you lose a token before rolling to see what you gain?


I don't get it at all : say you start will all but 1 Pygmies tokens (i.e : 10).
You lose 2 because of an aggressive opponent rushing 2 of your territories where you let only 1 pigmes each.

First conquest : you put the first token back to stock (you now have 2). You roll. 50% chance to get it back. Within the 50% 67% to recover the 2 from the stock.
Second conquest : you put the 2nd token back to stock (you now have 3). You roll. 50% chance to get it back. Within the 50%, 33% to recover 2, 33% to recover 3.

Whenever you roll, you have the opportunity to recover more than you lost. Where is this even ?
 
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Jeff Dunford
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hanshu wrote:
I don't get it at all : say you start will all but 1 Pygmies tokens (i.e : 10).
You lose 2 because of an aggressive opponent rushing 2 of your territories where you let only 1 pigmes each.

First conquest : you put the first token back to stock (you now have 2). You roll. 50% chance to get it back. Within the 50% 67% to recover the 2 from the stock.
Second conquest : you put the 2nd token back to stock (you now have 3). You roll. 50% chance to get it back. Within the 50%, 33% to recover 2, 33% to recover 3.

Whenever you roll, you have the opportunity to recover more than you lost. Where is this even ?


For simplicity, ignore the number in stock and assume it's unlimited.

You lose a pygmy in combat. You roll. You have a 1/6 chance to recover 3, 1/6 chance to recover 2, 1/6 chance to recover 1, and 1/2 to recover 0. On average, you recover 1.
(To visualize it, there are 6 pips total on 6 sides of the die; 6/6=1)

Since the stock is limited and, in your first example, you can't recover more than 2 on the first roll, the average recovery is actually lower than 1... so you'd be better off with Immortal/Elves.
(e.g. the first time, you have 1/3 chance to recover 2, 1/6 to recover 1, 1/2 to recover 0; this results in an average recovery of 5/6. The second time is conditional on the stock remaining after the first.)
 
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Yoff Lag
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iNano78 wrote:


Since the stock is limited and, in your first example, you can't recover more than 2 on the first roll, the average recovery is actually lower than 1... so you'd be better off with Immortal/Elves.


I see nowhere how the Elves can be more than what they start with. In my mind (I may be wrong), Merchant Elves are way inferior than Merchant Pigmies.

Edit : I understood the maths where the Elves always come back. Which is not true for pigmies.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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hanshu wrote:
iNano78 wrote:


Since the stock is limited and, in your first example, you can't recover more than 2 on the first roll, the average recovery is actually lower than 1... so you'd be better off with Immortal/Elves.


I see nowhere how the Elves can be more than what they start with. In my mind (I may be wrong), Merchant Elves are way inferior than Merchant Pigmies.

Edit : I understood the maths where the Elves always come back. Which is not true for pigmies.


Elves (or an Immortal race) are guaranteed to recover 1 unit whenever 1 unit is lost. Pygmies will, on average, recover 1 unit when 1 unit is lost only when at least 2 other units (for a total of 3) are available in the tray. If there are less than 2 other Pygmy units available, then on average they are worse than Elves in that their average recover rate is less than 1 (e.g. 5/6 if there is only 1 other Pygmy unit in the tray). Yes, Pygmies have more variance, so occasionally they recover more than they lose... but they often don't recover any at all (50% of the time). So occasionally they can get lucky and temporarily be "better" than Elves, but often they are worse, and on average they are never better (statistically equivalent only under the right circumstances; i.e. when there are 2+ units in the tray before before losing another).
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J
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What most of the comments are looking at are how the two races would perform overall comparatively.

The first thing you have to know is that if you role the SW die many many times the numbers would eventually average out to about 1. However this doesn't mean that during a single game your roles will average out to 1. Say you get attacked 5 times with the pigmies. There will be games where you roll:
About average (ie 2 0 3 1 0)
Far below average (ie 0 0 0 1 0)
and far above average (3 2 1 3 1)
Although they overall average to about 1 (more actually) during each individual game they play it feels like their performance fluctuates widely. I'll be using these rolls as an example from here on in

This makes it seem like on average over many games the Pigmies and the Elves perform the same. The games where they perform terribly are in theory countered by the games where they perform very well.

However this is flawed logic which doesn't take into account the fact that the Pigmies have a limited number of units to begin with.

Lets assume that we have pigmies and elves starting with a 5 race attribute. After being attacked 5 times elves will still have 11 units. Given the rolls above pigmies will have.
About average: 10
Far Below average: 7
Far above average: 11

Remember this compares 3 games where overall the rolls were above average yet the Pigmies ended up with fewer units overall than the elves.

The best case scenario compares pigmies with Merchant like the example you gave. In that case the elves will always have 8 units while given 5 attacks and the rolls above Pigmies will have.
About average: 9
Far Below average: 4
Far above average: 11

Remember this compares 3 games where overall the rolls were above average and the best possible attribute was linked to the the Pigmies yet they broke even with the elves.

However most of the attribute banners have 4/5 units meaning you will almost always be rolling at a disadvantage as iNano pointed out.

One final thing is that I picked the rolls very specifically to illustrate that even with above average rolls the pigmies could perform worse than the elves. The rolls I pick were biased slightly against the pigmies cause I had their higher roles coming earlier. There will be times that the pigmies will outperform the elves but statistically they are overall inferior.
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Yoff Lag
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Thanks for all these inputs.

I tend to figure out that Smallworld is not solely a strategic game. But contains the talk, the overall tactics of being invisible and avoid being The Threat around the table.

From my perspective, a player getting the opportunity to select twice during the game a good race+power combo will be hit hard by the other players. And thus, a good combo doesn't necessarily bring the victory. Because 9 elves is a determined number of victory points each turn.

On the other hand, these 9 pigmies are equally capable first turn than the elves, they also have the potential to become chaotics. When I face the pigmies, I don't want to figure out that 3 turns later, they are 11, even if statistically, they have low probability to be.

And that's because the player(s) between me and the pigmy-player will easily detect the rational number of victory points behind the elves. Where I can imagine how tricky can be the pigmies, I ain't sure these other players will react like me.


That said, I played last week-end versus 3 new players to SmallWorld, 2 of them with quite strong strategic capabilities. When you realize who leads, you know who to hit (that may be my mistake ^^ - may be I should stay quite and patient). When you hit 1 leader, the 2nd player in the ladder gets reinforced. If the last player around the table doesn't follow the lead-changing-curve, then your previous move becomes useless.

 
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