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Thunderstone Advance: Towers of Ruin» Forums » Rules

Subject: pike vs. ogrillon rss

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Chris McDonald
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The Ogrillon has the ability "Battle: Discard 1 equipped weapon." The Pike has the trait "This hero is not affected by Battle effects." Does that protection extend to weapons equipped by the hero? That is to say, can the Ogrillon's ability force you to discard an equipped pike?
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Will M. Baker
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cfmcdonald wrote:
The Ogrillon has the ability "Battle: Discard 1 equipped weapon." The Pike has the trait "This hero is not affected by Battle effects." Does that protection extend to weapons equipped by the hero? That is to say, can the Ogrillon's ability force you to discard an equipped pike?


I would say yes. Once a weapon is equipped to a hero, I think the two become a unit (i.e. the weapon and its attack is considered an extension of the hero). So the Pike would confer its protection on the hero, and therefore also back to itself.
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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I'm 90% sure that the Hero with the Pike cannot be unequippped by Orgrillon.

I'm not sure if you are still allowed to "Target" the Pike-Hero, or if you are required to choose a different Hero to unequip if possible.

For example, if you have 2 Regulars, 1 Pike, and 1 Longspear, I'm not sure if you are required to unequip the Longspear, or if you can say "Ogrillon tries to uneqip the Pike, but fails"
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Citizen Keen
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I am believe that Monster Battle-effects find a target if able, but it's likely that I'm totally wrong on this.
 
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Jimmy Lee
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Another question regarding pike, if a monster has a battle effect that destroys a hero, and I have two heroes in my hand; can I deliberately choose to destroy the hero equipped with the pike, and thus ignoring its effect?
 
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Will M. Baker
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CitizenKeen wrote:
I am believe that Monster Battle-effects find a target if able, but it's likely that I'm totally wrong on this.


The 1.4 rules give an example from which we can infer this rule: "The Faeyn cannot attack [Rank 1] because of his own Dungeon Effect. Therefore, the Haunt uses its ability to prevent either the Dwarf or Militia from attacking" (p.11).

However, I don't see a similar example in the ToR rules (I'd expect to find it on page 19).

It seems less ambiguous if the Battle effect is something like, "Destroy the hero with the highest strength", and my highest-strength hero happens to be protected; I wouldn't expect that effect to look for another target. But if the effect is "Destroy 1 hero", it seems too easy to be able to target my protected hero.
 
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Will M. Baker
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immune40 wrote:
Another question regarding pike, if a monster has a battle effect that destroys a hero, and I have two heroes in my hand; can I deliberately choose to destroy the hero equipped with the pike, and thus ignoring its effect?


No, not if it's equipped. The Pike's ability is a trait (on all the time), not a Dungeon effect.
 
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Aaron Morgan
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immune40 wrote:
Another question regarding pike, if a monster has a battle effect that destroys a hero, and I have two heroes in my hand; can I deliberately choose to destroy the hero equipped with the pike, and thus ignoring its effect?


The "Do What You Can" rule on p14 suggests that you have to choose the one that can be destroyed.

Quote:
When an ability is used against you, or when
you suffer an effect, you always do as much
as you can, and ignore the rest.
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Lyn Lee Fox
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cfmcdonald wrote:
The Ogrillon has the ability "Battle: Discard 1 equipped weapon." The Pike has the trait "This hero is not affected by Battle effects." Does that protection extend to weapons equipped by the hero? That is to say, can the Ogrillon's ability force you to discard an equipped pike?
I would say Ogrillon can make you discard the Pike. Ogrillon's ability is not affecting the hero, it's affecting the weapon. And the Pike's ability only protects the hero, not the weapon they have equipped.

immune40 wrote:
Another question regarding pike, if a monster has a battle effect that destroys a hero, and I have two heroes in my hand; can I deliberately choose to destroy the hero equipped with the pike, and thus ignoring its effect?
Yes. The Pike's ability says the hero is not affected by Battle effects. It doesn't stop Battle effects from trying to affect it; it just makes the attempts fail.
 
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Mark Wootton
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I am probably doing the wrong thing here, but I just wanted to hop in and give you some of answer. So I start with the caveat that Ryan is the official rules guy, and he will come in her an clarify, and tell me if I am wrong.

But I think you guys may be over-thinking this.

You are right in saying that a Monster will find a legal target if one exists. But the Pike doesn't stop something being a legal target - it just stops the hero being affected. The do all you can rule still works just fine - you just cannot so anything, because the Pike stops it.

There are no implied targeting rules in Thunderstone.

The Feayn example is a different thing to this.

I think that the Ogrillon discards the Pike to - it is not affecting the hero, but again, Ryan will answer son I am sure.

Mark
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Ryan Metzler
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Har1equin wrote:
I am probably doing the wrong thing here, but I just wanted to hop in and give you some of answer. So I start with the caveat that Ryan is the official rules guy, and he will come in her an clarify, and tell me if I am wrong.

But I think you guys may be over-thinking this.

You are right in saying that a Monster will find a legal target if one exists. But the Pike doesn't stop something being a legal target - it just stops the hero being affected. The do all you can rule still works just fine - you just cannot so anything, because the Pike stops it.

There are no implied targeting rules in Thunderstone.

The Feayn example is a different thing to this.

I think that the Ogrillon discards the Pike to - it is not affecting the hero, but again, Ryan will answer son I am sure.

Mark


This is an official answer:


Mark is absolutely correct. Sorry I've taken so long to weigh in here. The Ogrillon does not target the Hero, it selects an equipped weapon. Thus, the weapon may be discarded by Ogrillon.

If the ability were to read "This weapon may not be affected by battle effects" it would be a different situation.

This is an official answer:

Actually, the correct ruling is not as Mark states. A hero equipped with the pike CANNOT be chosen as the recipient of a Battle Effect. Thus, in a scenario with multiple heroes, one of which is equipped with a pike, another hero must be chosen as the recipient of a battle effect.
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Frederick Ohlmann
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Some situations to be sure I have understood that clearly.

So, I have two heroes, with strength 5 and strength 8 :
* the monster have "Aftermath : Destroy a hero". I will have to destroy an hero, the non-pike-equipped one (which in some case is worse than not using a pike at all, for example if the 8-strength is both a lvl 3 and the only one to be able to wield a claymore in my hand). In any case, I will have to destroy a hero.

* the monster have : "Aftermath : destroy a hero with the higher strength" since, if the pike is equipped on the 8-strength hero, they would be no legal target, while the higher strength would still be 8. So I would be able to not destroy any heroe if I want to.

If I have four heroes, all of which have strength 5, I have exactly one pike, and I attack a Titan, how many heroes will I have to destroy ? One, I.E. I can choose two-non pike hero and the pike hero will not be destroyed ? Two, because I must choose the pike hero as surviving, or simply because the titan does not target ?

Edit : third case for the titan : I cannot select the hero with the pike as being not destroyed. So he is still nopt destroyed (because he has the pike), but I can't destroy two hero even if I would want to.
 
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Chih-Hsien Wang
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I think Immune to Battle effects doesn't mean Immune to Aftermath Effects.
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Frederick Ohlmann
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You're right, I am silly. But the same situation work with battle effect.
 
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Lyn Lee Fox
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Interesting... Since the destroy portion of old Battle effects should now be treated as Aftermath, that would lower the power of any effects that cancel Battle effects. I don't think it's a problem with the Pike though since it wasn't around before the change.

However, after a very quick look through my cards, I found one other card that is effected by this change: Ruby Dragon. But since it's a treasure, and given the random nature in how you receive treasures, and since the card still remains fairly useful, I don't think it's a big problem.

Quote:
Actually, the correct ruling is not as Mark states. A hero equipped with the pike CANNOT be chosen as the recipient of a Battle Effect. Thus, in a scenario with multiple heroes, one of which is equipped with a pike, another hero must be chosen as the recipient of a battle effect.
If this is the official ruling on how the Pike works, then the Pike's ability isn't worded very well. However, I just read the "Do what you can" section and could see how that would apply to make it work that way.

 
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Daniel Halasz
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What is your opinion about:

Pike (hero is immune to battle effects)
vs
Batlte Effect: Immune to weapons
Battle Effect: Destroy a hero

Thank you in advance,
Fisha
 
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Edward Bolme
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The pike's protection is not affecting the monster, but the hero.
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Chuckhazard
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slaqr wrote:
Har1equin wrote:
I am probably doing the wrong thing here, but I just wanted to hop in and give you some of answer. So I start with the caveat that Ryan is the official rules guy, and he will come in her an clarify, and tell me if I am wrong.

But I think you guys may be over-thinking this.

You are right in saying that a Monster will find a legal target if one exists. But the Pike doesn't stop something being a legal target - it just stops the hero being affected. The do all you can rule still works just fine - you just cannot so anything, because the Pike stops it.

There are no implied targeting rules in Thunderstone.

The Feayn example is a different thing to this.

I think that the Ogrillon discards the Pike to - it is not affecting the hero, but again, Ryan will answer son I am sure.

Mark


This is an official answer:


Mark is absolutely correct. Sorry I've taken so long to weigh in here. The Ogrillon does not target the Hero, it selects an equipped weapon. Thus, the weapon may be discarded by Ogrillon.

If the ability were to read "This weapon may not be affected by battle effects" it would be a different situation.

This is an official answer:

Actually, the correct ruling is not as Mark states. A hero equipped with the pike CANNOT be chosen as the recipient of a Battle Effect. Thus, in a scenario with multiple heroes, one of which is equipped with a pike, another hero must be chosen as the recipient of a battle effect.


Uhhhh aren't these two official rulings contradictory?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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If you're asking what I think you're asking, then no. In the first example, Hero isn't chosen as the target, the Pike is the target. But if you have Hero A + Pike and Hero B + Longspear and you had a monster with Destroy 1 Hero Battle effect, you'd have to choose Hero B.
 
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Chuckhazard
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Dam the Man wrote:
If you're asking what I think you're asking, then no. In the first example, Hero isn't chosen as the target, the Pike is the target. But if you have Hero A + Pike and Hero B + Longspear and you had a monster with Destroy 1 Hero Battle effect, you'd have to choose Hero B.


Ok thanks. I see that these are official answers to different questions now They seemed very similar so I read both in the same context.
 
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