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Subject: Dake's Different 15er 2.1 rss

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Dake Jimson
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Dake's Different 15er 2.1


Evil Team

3 Werewolves - Share a chat. Choose night kill. One Werewolf is Tough and is aware of this.

Mimic - Chooses a target to view each night and receives their full role (does not get a Night 0 view). Can mimic any previously viewed role upon death. Can choose to view/mimic the same target in the same night. Cannot learn the "Tinker" or "Tough" attributes. Knows the identity of the 3 Werewolves. Counts for Good parity.

Good Team

Seer - Each night views a target for Wolf or Not-Wolf. Receives a random negative on Night 0. Can choose his target every night thereafter.

Witness - Chooses a target to watch during the night. If that target is night killed, the Witness will learn the identity of a random living Werewolf. Cannot watch the same target on consecutive nights. Once the Witness watches a night kill, he loses his ability.

Bodyguard - Chooses a player to guard from night kill. Bodyguard does not die on a successful guard. Can guard himself. Cannot guard the same target consecutive nights. Bodyguard will lose his ability after the first successful guard.

Hunter - Defeats parity in a 1v1 situation.

7 Villagers - No special powers. One of these Villagers is Tough and another is a Tinker, neither is aware of this. Tough and Tinker will reveal only as "Villager" upon death.

-----------------------

Start Date: Starts When Full

Dusk: 3:00PM BGG
Dawn: 4:00PM BGG

Sequence of Night Actions:
View
Watch
Guard
Mimic
Kill

Note: No Lynch and No Kill are both valid options.

------------------------

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Dake Jimson
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Re: Dake's Different 15er 2.0
not in signup just yet

i still felt like this set needed a little balancing. note the changes to the BG in bold.

feel free to comment.
 
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Alberto Saracco
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Am I allowed to play this again, Dake?
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Dake Jimson
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Saraxsr wrote:
Am I allowed to play this again, Dake?


of course!
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Alberto Saracco
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Dake wrote:
Saraxsr wrote:
Am I allowed to play this again, Dake?


of course!


I will for sure, then... I'm in another mimic game now... They are funny.
 
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Richard Hefferan
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You might want to specify whether the BG is aware if his ability is spent or not.
 
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Dake Jimson
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Shushnik wrote:
You might want to specify whether the BG is aware if his ability is spent or not.


great point. i think that he won't be aware. making the no kill a cool FUD-factor for the wolves if they want to use it.

what do you think, shush?
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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I think the BG should be aware of when it is used.
 
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Dake Jimson
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Poll
Should the Bodyguard be told when his Guard has been used up?
(poll is open to everyone who wishes to comment)
Yes
No
      15 answers
Poll created by Dake
 
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Richard Hefferan
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Dake wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
You might want to specify whether the BG is aware if his ability is spent or not.


great point. i think that he won't be aware. making the no kill a cool FUD-factor for the wolves if they want to use it.

what do you think, shush?


Each way has its merits. In a role set where the attempt is to obscure information (having the mimic is a big chunk of misinformation potential) I think it adds another layer, although it could be said that another layer is unnecessary.

Informing upon success removes the tension for that player's decision making. From then on they're only a villager.

I think I prefer not informing the BG.
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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I guess I feel like, strategically, because of the FUD of BG not knowing, they have a much lower incentive to actually block anybody but themselves until they get a good idea of the specials. To me, that eliminates some of the epic BG play people like Yiatzi have demonstrated.

There's a lot more guesswork and need for the BG to try to FUD wolves this way, which I imagine will FUD the village too, and I like when the village is trying to plan together. I might be over thinking it.
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Ryan Gatti
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I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil
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Dake Jimson
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rgatti wrote:
I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil


angry

do really think it's fine the way it was? that witness/BG combo is incredibly powerful.

this doesn't really change much anyway... how often does a non-yiatzi BG successfully protect more than once?
 
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Dake wrote:
rgatti wrote:
I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil


angry

do really think it's fine the way it was? that witness/BG combo is incredibly powerful.

this doesn't really change much anyway... how often does a non-yiatzi BG successfully protect more than once?


it gives the wolves incentive to just go after the priority target and use up the BG instead of having to side-step for the whole game.
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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I think instead of tweaking the BG, you have the witness have 50% chance to view a wolf the first time, then 75%, then 100%. Or maybe jump from 50 to 100. The BG confusion is great for the set, the witness is the thing that tipped the scales in my opinion.

I think the witness should be an understudy, alternatively.
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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I also agree, to some extent, with bwt. The mimic needs to be played perfectly for it to make up for losing a vote.
 
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TommyDanger wrote:
I also agree, to some extent, with bwt. The mimic needs to be played perfectly for it to make up for losing a vote.


i really don't think 11 v 4 is a terrible ratio for evil.
 
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Dake wrote:
rgatti wrote:
I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil


angry

do really think it's fine the way it was? that witness/BG combo is incredibly powerful.

this doesn't really change much anyway... how often does a non-yiatzi BG successfully protect more than once?

That's actually my point. If you're worried about the balance, this doesn't really address that. And, usually, the BG only has a chance to protect twice in games that are going heavily in Evil's favor and the additional protections are the only hope Good has left to swing things back in their favor. Otherwise, the single protect is often enough to tip things enough in Good's favor that Evil rarely recovers.

In the first iteration of this game, the BG never protected a single NK. Even the Witness's view of the NK wasn't really necessary, by the time it happened. It was really more the threat of having a NK blocked or a NK Witnessed that gave the combo power.

Personally, I think the Evil Tough will influence the outcome of the game more than people expect. Good either gets on track early and can overcome the Evil Tough obstacle, or they'll discover they are farther behind than they expected and need a lot of good fortune to survive.

What the biggest issue is is that there are multiple strong Good Specials, but only a single Aux to counter them.
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rgatti wrote:
Dake wrote:
rgatti wrote:
I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil


angry

do really think it's fine the way it was? that witness/BG combo is incredibly powerful.

this doesn't really change much anyway... how often does a non-yiatzi BG successfully protect more than once?

That's actually my point. If you're worried about the balance, this doesn't really address that. And, usually, the BG only has a chance to protect twice in games that are going heavily in Evil's favor and the additional protections are the only hope Good has left to swing things back in their favor. Otherwise, the single protect is often enough to tip things enough in Good's favor that Evil rarely recovers.

In the first iteration of this game, the BG never protected a single NK. Even the Witness's view of the NK wasn't really necessary, by the time it happened. It was really more the threat of having a NK blocked or a NK Witnessed that gave the combo power.

Personally, I think the Evil Tough will influence the outcome of the game more than people expect. Good either gets on track early and can overcome the Evil Tough obstacle, or they'll discover they are farther behind than they expected and need a lot of good fortune to survive.

What the biggest issue is is that there are multiple strong Good Specials, but only a single Aux to counter them.


i think this set might require one of the wolves to claim a special role.

what if i took the hunter out...?
 
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Dake wrote:
TommyDanger wrote:
I also agree, to some extent, with bwt. The mimic needs to be played perfectly for it to make up for losing a vote.


i really don't think 11 v 4 is a terrible ratio for evil.

It's not, especially with the Tough Wolf (which gives Evil another NK), but you have 3 strong Good Specials, and only 2 of them can be counter-claimed (which makes it easier for those Good Specials to coordinate and communicate their discoveries more quickly).

If you had an Aux Evil that could false-claim/counter-claim Witness with a false Wolf "viewed" that would likely add enough confusion (possibly an additional mislynch) which weakens the Witness.

I'm not really advocating 10 vs 5 for this role set, just pointing out how balancing is often achieved. Lots of powerful Good Specials in a small role set are challenging to balance.
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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To echo rgatti's sentiment, it's when you get into the all claim scenario that things become dicey. The evil team loses a potential Aux counter AND their vote. Unless the Mimic gets a Seer killed, for example, this isn't enough to counter balance the amount of potentially cleared players.

And even then, usually the good side is going to let the mimic and their counter LIVE, so it really takes a strong counter AND the wolves eating the correct one for the mimic to compensate for losing an Aux.

In my opinion.
 
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Thomas Q. Dangerpants, esq
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Taking the hunter out works, I think.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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Dake wrote:
rgatti wrote:
Dake wrote:
rgatti wrote:
I predict that Evil is going to steamroll Good the next time around, especially with these tweaks. Then we'll have a giant outcry of how much something or other favors Evil


angry

do really think it's fine the way it was? that witness/BG combo is incredibly powerful.

this doesn't really change much anyway... how often does a non-yiatzi BG successfully protect more than once?

That's actually my point. If you're worried about the balance, this doesn't really address that. And, usually, the BG only has a chance to protect twice in games that are going heavily in Evil's favor and the additional protections are the only hope Good has left to swing things back in their favor. Otherwise, the single protect is often enough to tip things enough in Good's favor that Evil rarely recovers.

In the first iteration of this game, the BG never protected a single NK. Even the Witness's view of the NK wasn't really necessary, by the time it happened. It was really more the threat of having a NK blocked or a NK Witnessed that gave the combo power.

Personally, I think the Evil Tough will influence the outcome of the game more than people expect. Good either gets on track early and can overcome the Evil Tough obstacle, or they'll discover they are farther behind than they expected and need a lot of good fortune to survive.

What the biggest issue is is that there are multiple strong Good Specials, but only a single Aux to counter them.


i think this set might require one of the wolves to claim a special role.

what if i took the hunter out...?

I think you need the Hunter to keep this role set interesting. Otherwise, it definitely becomes the Seer/Witness/BG strategy, and nothing else. With the Hunter, Good has a chance to recover from an early Seer/Witness/BG death and do something interesting.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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I think you're better off adding another Tinker instead of removing the Hunter.

Though, I think whatever you do, the Seer/Witness/BG dynamic will dominate most other creative strategies for this role set. So maybe the Witness is the real problem.
 
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rgatti wrote:
I think you're better off adding another Tinker instead of removing the Hunter.

Though, I think whatever you do, the Seer/Witness/BG dynamic will dominate most other creative strategies for this role set. So maybe the Witness is the real problem.


latent seer instead of witness was another option.

i don't like understudy, because A) i don't want to the potential of 2 seers at once and B) i think the understudy being able to confirm a claimed seer adds to his power.

latest seer is just right, i think.
 
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