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A Game of Thrones: A Storm of Swords Expansion» Forums » General

Subject: Typical negotiations? rss

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Damo
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Don't be the one they ally against? Don't play it as a 4 player? Bargain Stark down to 1 or 2 power tokens a turn?

Sounds like the same issue here as for any 4-player conquest game. That's just the way these games are made to be.

If it gets un-fun, play something else for awhile.
 
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dypaca
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By allying against Lannister they all improve Baratheon's chance of winning the game. It's actually probably a good idea for Stark to pretend to go along with this, but he should hit one of them hard.

Also, you can't just give another player power tokens, so I'm not sure what Stark is proposing in your example.
 
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dypaca
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coldbarca wrote:
dypaca wrote:
By allying against Lannister they all improve Baratheon's chance of winning the game. It's actually probably a good idea for Stark to pretend to go along with this, but he should hit one of them hard.

Also, you can't just give another player power tokens, so I'm not sure what Stark is proposing in your example.


Thanks for the clarification. The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing Lannister can offer Stark that is better than what Baratheon and Greyjoy are offering.

Yes, but my point is that what they are offering Stark is not really going to be good for him in the long run. I don't think this is a good idea for Greyjoy either.

While it might be a really good idea for Stark and Greyjoy to say this is their plan, really they want Lannister and Baratheon to stay evenly matched as long as possible.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Thinking that an alliance of 3:1 does help everyone involved who allies against a single other house is a misconception. 2 out of those 3 will get the short end of the stick, as they will not win the game. So they played badly. Most likely at least one of those would have faired better if they had supported Lannisters affairs.

3:1 is not a real issue here. If everybody really plays to win you'll realize that its not a good thing to put one player down together.

You have to ask yourself if you can really abuse that said houses weak position. Either there is someone closer to that player who can abuse him more effectively. Or you are the one, in which case you should push this effort. Either way there is one house that supports the abuse of one player by gaining less, most likely alot less, which ends in someone else winning. So he is doing it wrong !

More often than not, you have to support another weak player to maintain your own chances of winning. Even if you dont directly gain that much out of supporting him. Thats more how it really goes...
 
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dypaca
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Ultimately, I guess it comes down to what players are trying to get out of this game.

If your group just wants to command a lot of troops with ample supply and power, then they will be really happy with the 3 on 1 alliance, and one player will always have a bad time.

If they are playing to win, then they need to consider not just what they are gaining, but what they are allowing other players to gain.
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Joel Schuster
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If you find yourself hassled by 3 players like that, try this for once.

Pick one other player, the one closest to you at best. Make it clear to the other two players that they should keep out of your affairs or you let player A win, easily.

So when you play Stark and Lannister does not offer to send back Ned for a price anywhere reasonable (3-5 power ONCE), then just abandon Winterfell, head south to block Baratheon and Lannister in the Riverlands while you leave everything open to Greyjoy to win in a dash.

It should be Lannisters interest that you gain Ned back and be strong to defend and hold your lands against Greyjoy, while the Lion wrestles down the Stag.

If they fail to cope with that, they fail to understand the game. And if you are cornered that hard by all 3 other players, it is time to resort to very drastic responses.

It may either work wonders on your group, or you will abandon the game altogether, failing to see what it is about. But then you seem to be stuck at that point already. So it might be worth to head for this last option in another desperate effort
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Joel Schuster
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In your example you state that Lannister is harassed from all sides.

His natural enemy is Baratheon. Stark cannot reach him directly. Greyjoy is near but has Stark in his back. Greyjoy and Stark have no immediate business to hassle Lannister. Stark gains nothing at all from this, his play to mess in this is a joke. He doesnt even gain Ned back. He will not win the game. I judge this must be a really bad player to do as you say. But anyways, this doesnt matter, I also played my share with unreasonably acting players. Lets counter with this.

Tell Baratheon that you will leave Kings Landing in an orderly retreat. Due to the Garrison of 6 he will have to agree that you can evacuate your Riverland and capital forces back to Lannisport. Block Lannisport at all costs, you should be able to do that without too much effort as Tywin arrives. Take Silverhall for a backup once you got a free hand.

Greyjoy has nowhere to go really in this scenario if you block him effectively. He takes Riverrun but then he is pretty much out of options, unless you show a weak spot or he wants to compete for Harrenhal.

Even less options has Stark. He has nowhere to go. Stark and Greyjoy will run into border conflicts.

Of course, you are doomed as Lannister if you want to fend off everybody at the same time. Its still an obviously bad choice by Stark, but then the key is to show them clearly how this ends, in a Baratheon win. Teach them the hard way if they are really unable to see.

Once Baratheon takes Kings Landing way too easily, he can play his unique tactic for another free claim which puts him on 5. Setting up bases for MASSIVE power collection and with some Game of Thrones, he will soon dominate the tracks as well as the claim bids. Depending on how things go he might start to extend his influence towards Harrenhal, with no real military opposition. He is a power house with no direct opponent, he will threaten to win the game in very few turns.

While you as Lannister block all that Greyjoy could get his greedy fingers on that is yours. Greyjoy and Stark have nowhere to go without exposing their back to each other. One way or another they will end up at their throats.

You will not win this, well maybe you even do with alot of luck involved, but most likely your next game will go quite differently when Baratheon won way too easily
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dypaca
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Definately an outright lie is going to create grudge and should be saved for late game.

The key to fragile alliances is not to expect players to act against their own interests. Alliances will work best over things like a Stark/Baratheon border near the Eyrie or consolidating power in Goldroad/Sarsfield. Basically places where you can acknowledge that fighting over it will hurt the two of you more than the other players.

This way, both of you will feel incentive to honor it for at least a turn. But it is also small enough that you can 'forget' about the treaty in a turn or two and not be seen as completely untrustworthy.
 
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dypaca
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The basic formula of Asos is that Greyjoy fights Stark and Lannister fights Baratheon. Then, as the map fills up, players eventually see a good opportunity to strike at someone other than their natural opponent.

Also, it isn't so much that Baratheon will definately win when he gets King's Landing easily, just that the other players will have to devote more resources to stopping his expansion. If either of those matchs (greyjoy/stark or lannister/baratheon) ends up going really one-sided, the other two players should start devoting troops to knocking the winner back down.

This is another kind of alliance I didn't mention. The ones where Stark says "I think I should send some troops southeast." and Greyjoy says "I think I should avoid giving you an immediate reason to call them back."
 
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Joel Schuster
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When you play a game a REAL lot, you see those certain patterns. I did play ASOS a REAL lot If Kings Landing falls too easily into Baratheons hands, there isnt much to stop him from winning very quickly. Any half decent player with some experience will. A new player - not necessarily.

Once you've seen that happen a couple of times, everybody agrees that Lannisters rear will have to go unharassed so he can concentrate his forces at Kings Landing. The more turns it takes Baratheon to wrestle down the capital, the better the chances for everybody else to win.

ASOS is very well balanced by the way.
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Come back to Colorado, and I will ally with you.
 
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