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Subject: Noob question on melee shots and wizard spells rss

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Aaron Folk
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Just played our first game and really enjoyed it. Couple questions though:

1. What if a melee shot leaves the board but as a result of that same shot a different piece ends in the location the stray piece must return to? Should the stray piece be replace right next to the other piece on either side or should the stray piece be slid back onto the board into the required area which would in turn slide the other piece? In either case, who would do this? We homeruled to slide the piece back onto the board where it would normally go and slide the other piece in the process. Is there a more official ruling on this or does this fall into the "Important Point #5" at the end of the rules?

2. Are wizard spell tokens limited to one use per room like the elf arrows? We thought yes.
 
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Bryan Maxwell
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1. We play it the same way you did it.

2. Wizard spells are discarded after use. So that means 1 Magic Missile per game, 2 Shields per game, etc. As far as the individual tokens being spent, we've never played like this and I don't recall seeing anything to this effect in the rules (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

For example: if you cast Magic Missile, your yellow missile token isn't "spent" for that room. You could cast Drain Energy on the next turn (assuming you had the spell available).

Catacombs is a game where you're going to have to make quite a few judgement calls and house rules it seems. I feel the game is enough fun to warrant this.
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Captain Ameritrash
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1. We also would place the token the same way you did.

2. The wizard is not limited to one spell per board, so no.
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Aaron Folk
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Catacombs FAQ wrote:
What happens if a disc is knocked off the board but there is no room near the edge of the board for it to be placed?

At the location where the disc left the board, move the other discs perpendicularly away from the edge until the piece that left the board can be placed back on the board. Several pieces may need to be moved in this manner to accommodate the piece that left the board.


So that answers that question, but I didn't find anything about my second question.

TrashGameLover wrote:
2. The wizard is not limited to one spell per board, so no.


Sorry, I guess I didn't explain it well enough. We knew there wasn't a limit to the spells you can cast per room, but didn't know if we were limited to how many spell tokens we could use, or in other words, if you had to wait until the next room to get your skeleton, barrier, fireball and missile tokens back like the archer with her arrows. We figured since there was only one skeleton and barrier token for the wizard and only one spot on his sheet for each spell he could only cast those once each room and then they sort of went on "cooldown" until the next room when he would get the tokens back. So essentially you need both the spell card AND its token to cast a spell.

I think I'm fine with it either way. On the one hand, it encourages switching up the wizard's tactics throughout a single fight and overall strategy for the whole game. It also discourages being stingy with your fireballs in earlier rooms. On the other hand, it would be easy to end up with several "dead" spell cards in the final room, because you didn't cast them when you had the tokens available in previous rooms. I was just wondering if anyone knew an official ruling on any of these.

@Bryan: Yeah, I couldn't find anything in the rules either. I agree, it's definitely a fun game (we immediately decided we'd get the new expansions), but I feel that if it's important enough to mention how tokens work on the barbarian and archer sheets, the wizard's sheet should get the same attention in the rulebook. We'll try it your way next time and compare our approaches.
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Joshua Harris
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I guess I am still reading this as you are playing the wizard wrong. Once you use a spell card, it is discarded for the whole game. You won't get it back. So the limiting factor of the wizard ability is the cards, NOT the tokens related to the cards.
 
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Aaron Folk
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Oof, my communication skills must be off today. To clarify, we did discard the spell cards as per the rules and left them out for the rest of the game. That part seemed obvious. The question in our minds was does the wizard lose and regain the tokens in the exact same fashion the elf does and therefore does he need the card AND the token to cast the spell? We played it so that you lose the token for the rest of the room and the card for the rest of the game, but you get only the tokens back in the next room like the elf's arrows.

For example, the wizard casts magic missile but still has a chain lighting in his spell deck. The magic missile card is gone permanently so he can't use it in the current or future rooms. He also can't use chain lighting in the current room since magic missile already expended the needed token but he'll get the token back at the beginning of the next room allowing him to use chain lighting again.

If there's something in the rulebook or FAQ that specifically covers one ruling or the other, we've overlooked it and found only implications. On the one hand, the only limiting factor mentioned, as you point out, is the cards. But the layout of the elf and wizard character sheets follow a very similar graphic design motif of one space per token; the token starts here in the beginning and once you take it off and shoot it, it remains off the sheet. Or does it for the wizard? There's nothing telling me to take the tokens back after shooting them. But if you do, why have the token spaces on the wizard sheet at all? The monsters and bosses don't seem to need such spaces and can just use any loose fireball token, why not the wizard?
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Christian Busch

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You should only be limited to the tokens available in the game (not just the Wizard player mat). Only the spell cards are one use. This means that yes, you can burn through 2 drain lifes, a chain lightning, and a magic missile in the same room if you choose (no limit to how many tokens you play). This assumes you have those spell cards available still.

The only limit I see is you can’t have two summoned skeletons in the same room (because the game only supplies one). I guess you could house rule it and use an overseer’s skeleton token if everyone is ok with it. Likewise with the shield spell, you have two spell cards but only one shield disc. I would likely rule (in cases where you don’t have enough tokens) that the new casting replaces the old token with the new (effectively removing the old token off the board and moving it to the new casting spot).

Hope that helps!
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Aaron Folk
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space monkey mafia wrote:
I would likely rule (in cases where you don’t have enough tokens) that the new casting replaces the old token with the new (effectively removing the old token off the board and moving it to the new casting spot).


This seems like the most reasonable interpretation for both the shield and summoned skeleton, but again we seem to be limited to interpretations and house rules in this matter. I wish there was a clearly stated rule on this somewhere.
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Joshua Harris
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Got it. Sorry for misreading/misunderstanding your question.

We don't limit the components when we play, only the cards. Perhaps we could look at the spots on the wizard card as the hard limit for THINGS IN PLAY. So you can only have one skeleton/shield, in use at any one time.


EDIT: looks like I was beaten to the punch. I need to refresh faster!
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Anthony
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Not sure if this helps but, if you can use as many spell cards as you want in a room in only makes sense you have to re-use the tokens.

There is no limit as to a tokens use.
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Christian Busch

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Give it a day or so, the designers are on here regularly and chime in pretty quick for these things if you need something official.

My group never seemed to question the idea that the discs would be limited to once a room. Likely because the absence of any direction stating that. Since the other heroes have statements dictating their limited usage, the spots on the wizard player mat just meant (to us) that those pieces were for the wizard to use during the game. Magic Missile requires two independent shots but the wizard doesn’t get two yellow discs…
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Aaron Folk
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space monkey mafia wrote:
Likely because the absence of any direction stating that. Since the other heroes have statements dictating their limited usage, the spots on the wizard player mat just meant (to us) that those pieces were for the wizard to use during the game. Magic Missile requires two independent shots but the wizard doesn’t get two yellow discs…


That's kind of how I figured it but you said it better than I could. It's probably just me, but if the token spaces on the wizard sheet are just for reminding players which tokens to use for those spells then it's a bit misleading. The monster and boss cards don't use a similar reminder in their graphic design (though I see now that's probably due to lack of components for all such spaces) so I thought there might be an important distinction there.

This still nags at me though . . . perhaps I'm being OCD. Crossing my fingers for a response from an official.

Thanks for all the input guys!
 
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Ryan Amos
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One of our designers is out of the country right now, so I can't make an official ruling.

My thoughts were that if you were to re-cast a shield or skeleton, that's fine, but the old disc is removed from the board to play the new spell.

Anyway, I will double-check with everyone else in about a week or so. I'll post here if I'm interpreting it wrong.
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Aaron Folk
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@Christian: Wow, you weren't kidding!

Thanks Ryan. I look forward to it
 
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Marc Kelsey
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Let's have a public discussion about this, Ryan

The shield spell card specifically says you can only cast one of them per room, so that removes that one from the argument. But basically, it's more or less like Christian noted: the wizard spell cards allow you to cast the spells, but if you don't have the tokens to use, then you can't do anything. Practically, this only matters as far as the skeleton is concerned, since the fireball and missile tokens come off the board after they have been shot.

If you conjure up a skeleton, you are stuck with him until he dies or the room is completed. If he dies (and the piece comes off the board) and you want to cast him again, go ahead.
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Aaron Folk
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squid_ca wrote:
. . . the wizard spell cards allow you to cast the spells, but if you don't have the tokens to use, then you can't do anything. Practically, this only matters as far as the skeleton is concerned, since the fireball and missile tokens come off the board after they have been shot.

If you conjure up a skeleton, you are stuck with him until he dies or the room is completed. If he dies (and the piece comes off the board) and you want to cast him again, go ahead.


Now we're getting somewhere! Just so I'm perfectly clear on the reasoning here: a spell's token need only be available from anywhere off the board for the wizard to be able to cast a spell with it? So the the token spaces on the Wizard sheet are not treated like the elf's ammunition slots? Essentially, the wizard can use missile/fireball tokens just like the monsters: as many times per room that he wants, provided he has the spell card for it? And finally, one cannot recast skeleton or shield to reposition those tokens that are already on the board?

My group is confused on this because every other instance of a hero using other tokens for special actions comes with an "ammunition slot" on their sheet or card that replenishes at the beginning of each room (elf arrows, barbarian throwing axe, even the shield and skeleton on the wizard's sheet itself). We got the sense that missile/fireball tokens for wizard spells were an exception to this but couldn't find anything saying so one way or the other.
 
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