Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Rules could be clearer rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
CapeCod Gamer
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel some of the wording on cards conflict with the rules. FFG needs to be clearer. For example:

Rulebook says if there is an active location, you put progress tokens on location instead.

Rulebook also says wording on the cards supercide anything in the rulebook.

Legolas card says you put progress tokens on quest card for killed enemy. It says quest card, not location.

But I also read the offical ruling is if there is a loction active when Legolas's ability resolves, it goes on the location.

Can anyone else see how this can be confusing?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Builder
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I imagine this is true of any game like this where the rules on the card can basically be anything and they override the rules of the game. But yeah I have to look up ruling questions all the time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
H W
United Kingdom
Somerset
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
This is a Fantasy Flight Game.

I own and love several of their games, but in every case, they often take 30-40 pages to say in what could be explained much clearer in 10-12.

It's the verboseness of the rules that often confuses me, sometimes giving confusing/incomplete examples (one example in Bloodbowl Team Manager lead to one decision that basically handed one player the game).

Whereas I'll go to Headless Hollow and find a perfect 2-3 page summery that does a better job.

FFG's "Golden Rule" (that anything written on the card supersedes anything in the rulebook) has lead to a lot of confusion in the past, and it will continue to do so. Just make sure you always (after reading the rulebook), go to the FFG website and see if there is an official FAQ available.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Stevens
United States
Nebraska
flag msg tools
I protect the sheep in our society from the wolves.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Legolas's special ability allows you to put tokens on the Quest after killing an enemy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uncle Potato
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KenM wrote:
Legolas card says you put progress tokens on quest card for killed enemy. It says quest card, not location.

But I also read the offical ruling is if there is a loction active when Legolas's ability resolves, it goes on the location.

Can anyone else see how this can be confusing?


Here's the relevant section from the Rule book (pg. 15):

"...an active location acts as a buffer for the currently revealed quest card. Any progress tokens that would be placed on a quest card are instead placed on the active location. If a location ever has as many progress tokens as it has quest points, that location is considered explored and is discarded from play."

It's confusing at first, but you have to remember that this does not only apply to Legolas' ability, but to all text that tells you to place progress tokens on the current quest. So it's not an exception for Legolas' case, just a general rule.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Swalwell
United Kingdom
London
Greater London
flag msg tools
badge
Gamer in All Mediums
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nate_001 wrote:
KenM wrote:
Legolas card says you put progress tokens on quest card for killed enemy. It says quest card, not location.

But I also read the offical ruling is if there is a loction active when Legolas's ability resolves, it goes on the location.

Can anyone else see how this can be confusing?


Here's the relevant section from the Rule book (pg. 15):

"...an active location acts as a buffer for the currently revealed quest card. Any progress tokens that would be placed on a quest card are instead placed on the active location. If a location ever has as many progress tokens as it has quest points, that location is considered explored and is discarded from play."

It's confusing at first, but you have to remember that this does not only apply to Legolas' ability, but to all text that tells you to place progress tokens on the current quest. So it's not an exception for Legolas' case, just a general rule.


Is the same true in reverse? I can see how the 'all tokens are diverted rule' could over-rule a 'put a token on the quest' rule, but then you have goblins who take tokens off the quest...

We've been playing that they don't affect tokens on locations as the wording on the card is pretty specific, and so we did exactly what it said (plus we've got the thematic justification - Goblins can mess your plans up, but can't 'unexplore' parts of the world...)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uncle Potato
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You've been playing it correctly. When encounter cards say to remove cards from the current quest, it means the quest card and not the location. And I think that's the best thematic justification for that rule that I've seen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kalina
United States
Vernon
Connecticut
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FFG does have a curious rules book style to be sure. They seem to side on the stylish side as opposed to functionality of player use (to me at least). I don't believe these two rules style to be mutually exclusive.

For the type of games they publish they should use a new format. This format would have the introduction followed by componentry explanation/use, how to win, main body of rules, advanced and optional/extended examples of play if any. Finally an index and back page for any charts that might prove convenient. I would also prefer a smaller sized rules book for the big games- not the big sized one include LoTR. Something more traditionally sized. Big rules books get in the way and have a habit of knocking things over on the game board during play if you loose the grip on them. Not to mention mine seem to get ratty looking much quicker than say a smaller GMT sized rules book. So I definitely prefer a smaller easier to handle "footprint"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mighty Rauros
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KenM wrote:
I feel some of the wording on cards conflict with the rules. FFG needs to be clearer.


Love the title of this post. Made me laugh and I think it sums up most BGG activity on this game
2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Swalwell
United Kingdom
London
Greater London
flag msg tools
badge
Gamer in All Mediums
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Blastpop wrote:
For the type of games they publish they should use a new format. This format would have the introduction followed by componentry explanation/use, how to win, main body of rules, advanced and optional/extended examples of play if any. Finally an index and back page for any charts that might prove convenient. I would also prefer a smaller sized rules book for the big games- not the big sized one include LoTR. Something more traditionally sized. Big rules books get in the way and have a habit of knocking things over on the game board during play if you loose the grip on them. Not to mention mine seem to get ratty looking much quicker than say a smaller GMT sized rules book. So I definitely prefer a smaller easier to handle "footprint"


What your describing sounds remarkably like you want FFG to become more like Wargame rulebooks.

I agree that smaller, A4-ish or smaller sized books would be better than the large, glossy ones that FFG provide now, however the number of incomprehensible war-games out there show that this style doesn't help with the type of problems identified by the OP.

You can have contradictory rules even in perfectly organized books.

This type of complaint seems to point to a common complaint levelled against FFG - which is the lack of play testing (or even published errata and updated books) to pick up these confusions and iron them out.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kalina
United States
Vernon
Connecticut
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
savantt wrote:
What your describing sounds remarkably like you want FFG to become more like Wargame rulebooks.


It may sound like it, but there is room to have the "FFG style" if you will. I prefer to have a rule stated once with any exceptions in one place. I would not prefer to have the exceptions placed in the "other rules" section. Rules can be bane of the gamer to be sure and not limited to wargames. Smaller foot print rules would be a good start for me, even if FFG kept their jumbled/spread out in more than one place rules. Although Death Angel has among the smallest footprints it is one of the hardest games to first grasp how to play- for me at least. That one could use some reorganization. Another difficult one for me was Tide of Iron.

Keeping this post on topic- For LoTR I understood the game by reading the rules, but watching a You Tube video replay (not the FFG one) really cemented the game concepts for me. So as it currently stands I think FFG rules are more difficult for me to learn than they have to be. Then again everyone learns a bit differently... and I may be in the minority.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Morris
Scotland
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Join the BGG Folding @Home Team !!
badge
This user had more :gg: than sense
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm pretty sure I have seen exactly this example quoted somewhere - perhaps in the official FAQ (I am away from my copy). The point FFG make is that the 'golden rule' only applies when you CANNOT follow the rules. Here you can, because there is a generic statement in the rules (don't have those to hand either) along the lines of when you have an active location all tokens that would be placed on the quest go there instead. Legolas tries to put tokens on the quest, and they get diverted. The golden rule does not need to be called upon, and everything works fine.

And yes, of course the rules could be clearer. But this is FFG.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kalina
United States
Vernon
Connecticut
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
And yes, of course the rules could be clearer. But this is FFG.


So true, so I guess we should not expect anything more.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CapeCod Gamer
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thing is, way I read the rules, either way can work IMO.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CapeCod Gamer
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
I'm pretty sure I have seen exactly this example quoted somewhere - perhaps in the official FAQ (I am away from my copy).


I just looked, its the very first example they give in the FAQ. If there is a location, you put it on location first from Legolas' ability.

But FFG still needs to work on wording so questions like this don't come up.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.