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Subject: Understanding the shorthand on the counters rss

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Mark J
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Infiltrator (20.5): the back of the counter says "+2 right" and "Keep: +3".

+2 right can't be referring to a column shift to check for infiltration because the only time you put the counter on your man is when he already has accomplished infiltration. So I don't know with "+2 Right" is referring to.

I don't know what the "keep" means but the +3 only seems to be used when the defender or the attacker has more than one man attacking or defending with him (20.622, 20.72). But the "keep" makes no sense. Instead of keep why not go with "+3 extra attacker" or something like that?

Wounded counter (33): the back of the counter has these words "RNC before R". The only thing I think it's referring to is doing a RNC before you're allowed to do a repair attempt. Is that right? Seems they could have worded it better if so.
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Mike Szarka
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The +2 right would refer to the fact that if an attacker is attempting to infiltrate from a group that has already been infiltrated, there is a +2 right shift (20.39). The +3 keep refers to keeping infiltration status after successful CC (you have to win by +3 to keep infiltration).

You are correct about the wounded marker.
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William Garramone
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The +3 Keep refers to rule [20.73] "...However, if he already has infiltrator status he may keep it to use in any subsequent CC or normal Fire attack against the infiltrated group only if he has defeated his last CC opponent by 3 or more in the resolution of their CC."

So if you defeat your opponent in CC by 3 or more, you get to 'Keep' your Infiltrator status.

If I'm not mistaken the +2 right is referring to rule [20.39] "...If the attacker is attempting to infiltrate from a group which has already been infiltrated (itself), there is a two column shift to the right to determine infiltration status."

I think this is just another reminder to a player that has infiltration status against an enemy group that that enemy group suffers a +2 column shift to the right if they try to infiltrate a group that has in turn already infiltrated them. I'm not completely sure about that but I'm sure about the reference and rule to +3 Keep.
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William Garramone
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mcszarka wrote:
The +2 right would refer to the fact that if an attacker is attempting to infiltrate from a group that has already been infiltrated, there is a +2 right shift (20.39). The +3 keep refers to keeping infiltration status after successful CC (you have to win by +3 to keep infiltration).

You are correct about the wounded marker.
And I thought I was going to be first this time. Shouldn't have pulled the rule book out. That 6 minutes cost me. laugh
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Yiannis Avramandis
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DiploGuy wrote:


Wounded counter (33): the back of the counter has these words "RNC before R". The only thing I think it's referring to is doing a RNC before you're allowed to do a repair attempt. Is that right? Seems they could have worded it better if so.


Before reshuffling the deck.
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Richard Irving
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Emil 109 wrote:
DiploGuy wrote:


Wounded counter (33): the back of the counter has these words "RNC before R". The only thing I think it's referring to is doing a RNC before you're allowed to do a repair attempt. Is that right? Seems they could have worded it better if so.


Before reshuffling the deck.


Actually check of wounded men is not during the reshuffle, but "Therefore, during his first turn at the start of each new deck a RNC must be drawn for each wounded man." The errata interpret this as the first card of the first full turn of the new deck:

Therefore:
- Player A completes the rest of his turn after the reshuffle.
- Then Player B's Wounded men are checked (RNC = dead.)
- Then Player B executes his turn.
- Then Player A's wounded men are checked.
- Then Player A executes his turn.

Note this means that wounded men do not have to check at the end of the time limit.
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John McLintock
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rri1 wrote:
Emil 109 wrote:
DiploGuy wrote:


Wounded counter (33): the back of the counter has these words "RNC before R". The only thing I think it's referring to is doing a RNC before you're allowed to do a repair attempt. Is that right? Seems they could have worded it better if so.


Before reshuffling the deck.


Actually check of wounded men is not during the reshuffle, but "Therefore, during his first turn at the start of each new deck a RNC must be drawn for each wounded man." The errata interpret this as the first card of the first full turn of the new deck:

Therefore:
- Player A completes the rest of his turn after the reshuffle.
- Then Player B's Wounded men are checked (RNC = dead.)
- Then Player B executes his turn.
- Then Player A's wounded men are checked.
- Then Player A executes his turn.

Note this means that wounded men do not have to check at the end of the time limit.

Hmm. I remember reading somewhere (in a copy of the General I'm sure) a ruling to the effect that you could wait until you refilled your hand on that first turn of the new deck before making your wound checks. The ruling made the point that this would give you the chance of drawing a Hero card, which you could then immediately play (and replace) to cancel a wound check. It appears that ruling has been superceded.
 
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William Garramone
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JMcL63 wrote:
rri1 wrote:
Emil 109 wrote:
DiploGuy wrote:


Wounded counter (33): the back of the counter has these words "RNC before R". The only thing I think it's referring to is doing a RNC before you're allowed to do a repair attempt. Is that right? Seems they could have worded it better if so.


Before reshuffling the deck.


Actually check of wounded men is not during the reshuffle, but "Therefore, during his first turn at the start of each new deck a RNC must be drawn for each wounded man." The errata interpret this as the first card of the first full turn of the new deck:

Therefore:
- Player A completes the rest of his turn after the reshuffle.
- Then Player B's Wounded men are checked (RNC = dead.)
- Then Player B executes his turn.
- Then Player A's wounded men are checked.
- Then Player A executes his turn.

Note this means that wounded men do not have to check at the end of the time limit.

Hmm. I remember reading somewhere (in a copy of the General I'm sure) a ruling to the effect that you could wait until you refilled your hand on that first turn of the new deck before making your wound checks. The ruling made the point that this would give you the chance of drawing a Hero card, which you could then immediately play (and replace) to cancel a wound check. It appears that ruling has been superceded.
Funny you should say that John because I think I read the same thing somewhere. Don't know if it was official or not though. On the other hand, I consider Richard to be the local 'guru' on Up Front so I'm not sure.
 
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Mike Szarka
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But each player will have cards in hand according to Richard's scheme...I think?
 
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Mark J
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I get the shorthand info on the counters now, thanks. But I find the "+2 Right" on the infiltrator counter to be a bit asinine. You only grab the counter to place on your man once he has established himself as an infiltrator. So why does the counter have information relating to prior to being an infiltrator? In addition why only include that piece of shift information. There's plenty of other "shift" left and rights to know about so why include only one on the counter? Because it's the most important or most common "shift" to know about... eh, I doubt that. This isn't meant to be a rant. I just think I'll remove that part when I print out the counter re-design.

 
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Mike Szarka
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DiploGuy wrote:
I get the shorthand info on the counters now, thanks. But I find the "+2 Right" on the infiltrator counter to be a bit asinine. You only grab the counter to place on your man once he has established himself as an infiltrator. So why does the counter have information relating to prior to being an infiltrator?


Because it affects the OTHER guy once you have infiltrated his group.
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Mark J
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Edward Kendrick
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JMcL63 wrote:
Hmm. I remember reading somewhere (in a copy of the General I'm sure) a ruling to the effect that you could wait until you refilled your hand on that first turn of the new deck before making your wound checks. The ruling made the point that this would give you the chance of drawing a Hero card, which you could then immediately play (and replace) to cancel a wound check. It appears that ruling has been superseded.


Quoting the errata:

33.7 Exactly when during the turn do you check for wounded? At the end? At the start?
A. The first card of the first full turn of a new deck.
Also, if you deplete the deck during the turn of a player with a wounded man, do you check that turn or the next?
A. Next turn.


I would interpret this as meaning, if the deck runs out during your turn, you reshuffle, finish your turn, fill your hand, your opponent has his turn, and then immediately before you take your turn, you check for survival. If you picked up a Hero when refilling your hand, you can play it to avoid the check.

So I think you're right here, John. (Except you play the Hero card immediately before taking the check, rather than immediately on drawing it - so you don't get the instant replacement of the card.)
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John McLintock
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Barbarossa wrote:
JMcL63 wrote:
Hmm. I remember reading somewhere (in a copy of the General I'm sure) a ruling to the effect that you could wait until you refilled your hand on that first turn of the new deck before making your wound checks. The ruling made the point that this would give you the chance of drawing a Hero card, which you could then immediately play (and replace) to cancel a wound check. It appears that ruling has been superseded.


Quoting the errata:

33.7 Exactly when during the turn do you check for wounded? At the end? At the start?
A. The first card of the first full turn of a new deck.
Also, if you deplete the deck during the turn of a player with a wounded man, do you check that turn or the next?
A. Next turn.


I would interpret this as meaning, if the deck runs out during your turn, you reshuffle, finish your turn, fill your hand, your opponent has his turn, and then immediately before you take your turn, you check for survival. If you picked up a Hero when refilling your hand, you can play it to avoid the check.

So I think you're right here, John. (Except you play the Hero card immediately before taking the check, rather than immediately on drawing it - so you don't get the instant replacement of the card.)

I think you've misunderstood my point Edward. I've always been clear that you do wound checks on the first full turn of a new deck, and that you'd play Hero cards before a wound check to cancel that check. I was curious about the ruling that you have to take your wound check(s) with the "first card(s)", because I'd read a ruling (which must've been in an FAQ in a copy of the General back in the 80s; I'm sure of that much because there could've been nowhere else I'd've read anything about UF back in those days) which allowed you to make the wound check after you'd refilled your hand on the appropriate turn. The ruling (maybe the question?- I'm not sure, it's been a long time) explicitly referred to this as being a way of increasing your chance of having a Hero card which would prevent the wound check. I'm curious about the reasoning which led to an FAQ reversing the earlier judgement of exactly when, in a turn, the wound check has to be made.
 
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Edward Kendrick
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The AH issues with Up Front questions in were, from my index, 20.2, 21.1, 22.2, 22.3, 28.3 and 28.6. The second and third of these were issues devoted respectively to Up Front and Banzai, and the Q&A from these and the first issue were included in the second edition UF rules. The point about the timing of the play of a Hero card in these circumstances isn't covered there, nor is it in the later three issues (I've just looked through them).

It may be that I've missed an issue with UF Q&A in, of course, but it would have been interesting to track down the reference. Is it possible that it was in a strategy article rather than a Q&A?

As far as the reasoning goes, the original rule says "during his first turn at the start of each new deck a RNC must be drawn for each wounded man." This obviously leaves the question open as to when the draw occurs.

However, the idea is that the end of the deck is a timing mechanism, and if this happens during your own turn, the time represented by the other player's turn has already elapsed when it comes round to your turn again. It seems reasonable to make the draw immediately, as close as possible to the start of the deck, rather than let yet more time go by until your turn ends.
 
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David Janik-Jones
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And to follow on with Edward's reply, there is always Alan Arvold's list of errata for question seekers that he gathered from The General, AH, etc (although some of his answers are at odds with Maly's official errata).

http://www.grognard.com/errata1/upfront.html
 
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