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Subject: Random Rules Generator rss

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Tim Seitz
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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This actually looks pretty interesting.

Does anyone have an English translation for this?

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Luca Iennaco
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Before the game, determine 3 different rules by rolling two dice (first for group, second for rule).

GROUP 1-2
1) Pay 1 coin when reshuffling your deck (if you cannot, discard 2 cards after refilling the hand to 5).
2) One fortification disc in Louisburg during setup.
3) French instant win if he builds a city in Fort Duquesne.
4) If you do not block an ambush, remove a vulnerable card from your hand, reserve or siege (in the last case, modify siege track accordingly).
5) 3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought).
6) French player can discard a card from his hand and draw a new card whenever a siege is resolved (before taking any action).

GROUP 3-4
1) Locations cards can be put in Reserve.
2) English player adds "Boat" card to his starting deck.
3) A blocked ambush is not considered an action.
4) A blocked pillage is not considered an action.
5) One fortification disc in Quebec during setup.
6) Both players can play a card with a "Fur" as a free action to gain 1 coin.

GROUP 5-6
1) When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).
2) French player adds any one card from his Empire to his starting deck.
3) If you put a Location card back into the available cards, then you lose control of that location.
4) Natives have a military power of 1 and can be used during sieges.
5) English player cannot start a siege until the French player starts one OR he has 25 Victory Points.
6) If you lose control of a location, you may remove its card from your hand as a free action.



(I haven't checked if the words I've used are exactly those of the English edition, but I hope the sense is clear... if not, just ask! )
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Paulo Santoro
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This seems an official release... but, in this case, why only in Italian?
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The secret behind AFAoS's play testing is revealed. . .
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This is really worrisome.
Yes, there are some interesting ideas in there.
The problem for me is that it smells of no playtesting at all, or at best very limited testing. So some of the rules seem (at first glance) to imbalance the game strongly.
I cannot say much as to which are better, which are bad, or which are ridiculous or no change at all, because I have not yet played enough games to have a firm enough grasp of it to do just that.

All in all, however, it looks like:
"I had some ideas how to improve the game. I don't know how they work, but let's throw them out there to keep the players interested in the otherwise broken game. That should keep them occupied for some time until they found all new weaknesses.
And maybe (who knows) there might be a solution to the basic problem that we missed...?"

What really bothers me is that it is, somehow, intriguing. And I am curious as to how the different rules impact play. On the other hand, I am really worried that I find out during a session that a rules set (or one specific rule) is inoperable, which basically destroys the game played, and makes the time invested time wasted...
...or, even worse, a rules set that is really fascinating for a long time - until you see the subtlety in which it is imbalanced to one of the two sides...
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Tom
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Translation:
"All 2-player wargames are broken, but now you can roll the dice and have the game broken each time in a different way".
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Aw Tom, you say it so much better than I ever could...
modest
...and with fewer words, too...
surprise

In addition to the above, I am now a bit angered by this ploy. Because it seems a strategy to keep the game on the market longer (what with the 2nd edition coming, etc.). "So its broken, but we made it that you can enjoy it in a 1000 different broken ways. Keep buying, and ranking it high!"

That's just low, man...
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Tom
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You need to remember that "changing the rules is essentialy like changing the sets of cards in Dominion". Here we've basically got new sets of cards for A Few Acres of Snow... Only without the cards.
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Adam Brant
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Dumon wrote:

"I had some ideas how to improve the game. I don't know how they work, but let's throw them out there to keep the players interested in the otherwise broken game. That should keep them occupied for some time until they found all new weaknesses.
And maybe (who knows) there might be a solution to the basic problem that we missed...?"


that works for me.
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Eugene
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The random options give a strong sense of favoring the French side. What's your take, Tim?
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Tim Seitz
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My initial analysis of these options:

GROUP 1-2
Quote:
1) Pay 1 coin when reshuffling your deck (if you cannot, discard 2 cards after refilling the hand to 5).

EVEN. British will pay more, since they are shuffling more, but French will likely have less money to play with.

Quote:
2) One fortification disc in Louisburg during setup.
3) French instant win if he builds a city in Fort Duquesne.

PRO-FRENCH. Both of them.

Quote:
4) If you do not block an ambush, remove a vulnerable card from your hand, reserve or siege (in the last case, modify siege track accordingly).

PRO-BRITISH. We've tested this before. It seems on the surface like it might help the French, but in reality, by itself, it makes the British very strong, since they can get down to a thin deck during a siege where they can do double ambushes. This might change if it's in conjunction with another Pro-French rule that affects ambushing or raiding.

Quote:
5) 3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought).

PRO-FRENCH. Arguably = French win.

Quote:
6) French player can discard a card from his hand and draw a new card whenever a siege is resolved (before taking any action).

PRO-FRENCH.


GROUP 3-4
Quote:
1) Locations cards can be put in Reserve.

PRO-FRENCH. This goes back to Version 1. Not allowing locations to be reserved actually helps the British, so reversing it helps the French a bit.

Quote:
2) English player adds "Boat" card to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH

Quote:
3) A blocked ambush is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be ambushing, but now he *might*.

Quote:
4) A blocked pillage is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be raiding, either, but there is the opportunity to try and take down Quebec, or to settle Halifax and raid. These become more attractive options now, but it also reduces the cost associated with defense for the French.

Quote:
5) One fortification disc in Quebec during setup.

PRO-FRENCH.

Quote:
6) Both players can play a card with a "Fur" as a free action to gain 1 coin.

PRO-FRENCH. While British can acquire some some fur cards, this is usually bad strategy. They are still going to want to rid themselves of St Mary's - since it doesn't have a fur - so they also might as well ditch Pemaquid along with it.


GROUP 5-6
Quote:
1) When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).

PRO-FRENCH. British almost never need to discard, until they are prepping for another siege.

Quote:
2) French player adds any one card from his Empire to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH. Siege Artillery is what I'd get. You could see some French instant wins with that in hand.

Quote:
3) If you put a Location card back into the available cards, then you lose control of that location.

PRO-BRITISH. The principle defense for French is to develop and govern.

Quote:
4) Natives have a military power of 1 and can be used during sieges.

EVEN. This could go either way. French have an inherent advantage with natives, but if both players go hardcore, things can get wonky as the decks fill up. However, another defense against the Hammer - lots of Indians suddenly becomes MUCH more effective. British would probably need to get a lot of their own to match French contributions to the siege.

Quote:
5) English player cannot start a siege until the French player starts one OR he has 25 Victory Points.

EVEN. The French want to start an early siege, because it cleans up their deck. Whereas, British would only need to do some quick development to get back in business. Ultimately this will come down to control of Halifax, If french can take it first, then they might have an advantage here.

Quote:
6) If you lose control of a location, you may remove its card from your hand as a free action.

PRO-FRENCH.
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Paulo Santoro
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I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

And Dominion is exactly this: each card set is broken in some way, but you play it only one time. Dominion is essentialy this, and it is not broken, it's a different concept. I love it: if I hated it, I wouldn't be playing AFAoS in the first time.

Having said that, we can of course comment some of those ideas. It seems to me that B1 can be extremely pro-Hammer. But I liked almost every line. It deserves to be played.
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David Short
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out4blood wrote:
My initial analysis of these options:

GROUP 1-2
Quote:
1) Pay 1 coin when reshuffling your deck (if you cannot, discard 2 cards after refilling the hand to 5).

EVEN. British will pay more, since they are shuffling more, but French will likely have less money to play with.

Quote:
2) One fortification disc in Louisburg during setup.
3) French instant win if he builds a city in Fort Duquesne.

PRO-FRENCH. Both of them.

Quote:
4) If you do not block an ambush, remove a vulnerable card from your hand, reserve or siege (in the last case, modify siege track accordingly).

PRO-BRITISH. We've tested this before. It seems on the surface like it might help the French, but in reality, by itself, it makes the British very strong, since they can get down to a thin deck during a siege where they can do double ambushes. This might change if it's in conjunction with another Pro-French rule that affects ambushing or raiding.

Quote:
5) 3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought).

PRO-FRENCH. Arguably = French win.

Quote:
6) French player can discard a card from his hand and draw a new card whenever a siege is resolved (before taking any action).

PRO-FRENCH.


GROUP 3-4
Quote:
1) Locations cards can be put in Reserve.

PRO-FRENCH. This goes back to Version 1. Not allowing locations to be reserved actually helps the British, so reversing it helps the French a bit.

Quote:
2) English player adds "Boat" card to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH

Quote:
3) A blocked ambush is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be ambushing, but now he *might*.

Quote:
4) A blocked pillage is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be raiding, either, but there is the opportunity to try and take down Quebec, or to settle Halifax and raid. These become more attractive options now, but it also reduces the cost associated with defense for the French.

Quote:
5) One fortification disc in Quebec during setup.

PRO-FRENCH.

Quote:
6) Both players can play a card with a "Fur" as a free action to gain 1 coin.

PRO-FRENCH. While British can acquire some some fur cards, this is usually bad strategy. They are still going to want to rid themselves of St Mary's - since it doesn't have a fur - so they also might as well ditch Pemaquid along with it.


GROUP 5-6
Quote:
1) When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).

PRO-FRENCH. British almost never need to discard, until they are prepping for another siege.

Quote:
2) French player adds any one card from his Empire to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH. Siege Artillery is what I'd get. You could see some French instant wins with that in hand.

Quote:
3) If you put a Location card back into the available cards, then you lose control of that location.

PRO-BRITISH. The principle defense for French is to develop and govern.

Quote:
4) Natives have a military power of 1 and can be used during sieges.

EVEN. This could go either way. French have an inherent advantage with natives, but if both players go hardcore, things can get wonky as the decks fill up. However, another defense against the Hammer - lots of Indians suddenly becomes MUCH more effective. British would probably need to get a lot of their own to match French contributions to the siege.

Quote:
5) English player cannot start a siege until the French player starts one OR he has 25 Victory Points.

EVEN. The French want to start an early siege, because it cleans up their deck. Whereas, British would only need to do some quick development to get back in business. Ultimately this will come down to control of Halifax, If french can take it first, then they might have an advantage here.

Quote:
6) If you lose control of a location, you may remove its card from your hand as a free action.

PRO-FRENCH.


Thanks Tim. For those of us keeping score at home:

French 11
British 2
Even 5
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Charlie Theel
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PauloSantoro wrote:
I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

And Dominion is exactly this: each card set is broken in some way, but you play it only one time. Dominion is essentialy this, and it is not broken, it's a different concept. I love it: if I hated it, I wouldn't be playing AFAoS in the first time.

Having said that, we can of course comment some of those ideas. It seems to me that B1 can be extremely pro-Hammer. But I liked almost every line. It deserves to be played.


Each Dominion deck is not broken. The point of Dominion is to find the optimal strategy for the card-set in play. That's the entire game.

If that's the point of A Few Acres of Snow then this game should not only be out of the top 100 but should be relegated as a very poor game. A Few Acres of Snow is like playing Dominion with one set of permanent Kingdom cards.

You know what the difference is (besides Dominion is $20 cheaper than AFAoS)? Dominion has hundreds of cards. I've played several hundred games on Isotropic and still average about around 10 games a week. Even when you see the same cards there's other cards which have subtle influence on the game.

You know what else is different? Dominion is symmetrical. You can both persue the same strategy. With AFAoS it's like you're stuck with Coppers and a single Mine Action Card (French), while your opponent has Chapel and Golds.
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PauloSantoro wrote:
I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

But Dominion isn't an asymmetric game. Every player in Dominion has equal access to potential brokenness. Not so in FAoS.
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Paulo Santoro
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I can see that Tim analysis is biased. "Arguably = French win"? The game must be played!

Let's see:

3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought)
Tim: "Arguably = French win"

When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).
Tim:
"PRO-FRENCH. British almost never need to discard, until they are prepping for another siege."

But with BOTH rules, Britishes could choose to DEFEND and EXPAND. It would be a very different game. If the variants are supposed to CHANGE the game, we can't analyze as if players will TRY to play the same way over and over. If British knows he can't win by sieging Quebec, now discarding can be very useful.

I only see negative mood in AFAoS forum. The game is better than that.
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charlest wrote:
PauloSantoro wrote:
I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

And Dominion is exactly this: each card set is broken in some way, but you play it only one time. Dominion is essentialy this, and it is not broken, it's a different concept. I love it: if I hated it, I wouldn't be playing AFAoS in the first time.

Having said that, we can of course comment some of those ideas. It seems to me that B1 can be extremely pro-Hammer. But I liked almost every line. It deserves to be played.


Each Dominion deck is not broken. The point of Dominion is to find the optimal strategy for the card-set in play. That's the entire game.

If that's the point of A Few Acres of Snow then this game should not only be out of the top 100 but should be relegated as a very poor game. A Few Acres of Snow is like playing Dominion with one set of permanent Kingdom cards.

You know what the difference is (besides Dominion is $20 cheaper than AFAoS)? Dominion has hundreds of cards. I've played several hundred games on Isotropic and still average about around 10 games a week. Even when you see the same cards there's other cards which have subtle influence on the game.

You know what else is different? Dominion is symmetrical. You can both persue the same strategy. With AFAoS it's like you're stuck with Coppers and a single Mine Action Card (French), while your opponent has Chapel and Golds.


If AFAoS would equal to Dominion, what would be the point? Of course it's different.
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Paulo Santoro
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dshortdesign wrote:
out4blood wrote:
My initial analysis of these options:

GROUP 1-2
Quote:
1) Pay 1 coin when reshuffling your deck (if you cannot, discard 2 cards after refilling the hand to 5).

EVEN. British will pay more, since they are shuffling more, but French will likely have less money to play with.

Quote:
2) One fortification disc in Louisburg during setup.
3) French instant win if he builds a city in Fort Duquesne.

PRO-FRENCH. Both of them.

Quote:
4) If you do not block an ambush, remove a vulnerable card from your hand, reserve or siege (in the last case, modify siege track accordingly).

PRO-BRITISH. We've tested this before. It seems on the surface like it might help the French, but in reality, by itself, it makes the British very strong, since they can get down to a thin deck during a siege where they can do double ambushes. This might change if it's in conjunction with another Pro-French rule that affects ambushing or raiding.

Quote:
5) 3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought).

PRO-FRENCH. Arguably = French win.

Quote:
6) French player can discard a card from his hand and draw a new card whenever a siege is resolved (before taking any action).

PRO-FRENCH.


GROUP 3-4
Quote:
1) Locations cards can be put in Reserve.

PRO-FRENCH. This goes back to Version 1. Not allowing locations to be reserved actually helps the British, so reversing it helps the French a bit.

Quote:
2) English player adds "Boat" card to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH

Quote:
3) A blocked ambush is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be ambushing, but now he *might*.

Quote:
4) A blocked pillage is not considered an action.

EVEN. Generally, a Hammer player won't be raiding, either, but there is the opportunity to try and take down Quebec, or to settle Halifax and raid. These become more attractive options now, but it also reduces the cost associated with defense for the French.

Quote:
5) One fortification disc in Quebec during setup.

PRO-FRENCH.

Quote:
6) Both players can play a card with a "Fur" as a free action to gain 1 coin.

PRO-FRENCH. While British can acquire some some fur cards, this is usually bad strategy. They are still going to want to rid themselves of St Mary's - since it doesn't have a fur - so they also might as well ditch Pemaquid along with it.


GROUP 5-6
Quote:
1) When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).

PRO-FRENCH. British almost never need to discard, until they are prepping for another siege.

Quote:
2) French player adds any one card from his Empire to his starting deck.

PRO-FRENCH. Siege Artillery is what I'd get. You could see some French instant wins with that in hand.

Quote:
3) If you put a Location card back into the available cards, then you lose control of that location.

PRO-BRITISH. The principle defense for French is to develop and govern.

Quote:
4) Natives have a military power of 1 and can be used during sieges.

EVEN. This could go either way. French have an inherent advantage with natives, but if both players go hardcore, things can get wonky as the decks fill up. However, another defense against the Hammer - lots of Indians suddenly becomes MUCH more effective. British would probably need to get a lot of their own to match French contributions to the siege.

Quote:
5) English player cannot start a siege until the French player starts one OR he has 25 Victory Points.

EVEN. The French want to start an early siege, because it cleans up their deck. Whereas, British would only need to do some quick development to get back in business. Ultimately this will come down to control of Halifax, If french can take it first, then they might have an advantage here.

Quote:
6) If you lose control of a location, you may remove its card from your hand as a free action.

PRO-FRENCH.


Thanks Tim. For those of us keeping score at home:

French 11
British 2
Even 5


No. Read my reply. With combos, this can change, because the game can change.
 
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I do not get it.
First you say that Dominion has exactly the same issues, countering all argument that this table is not a good idea...

PauloSantoro wrote:
I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

And Dominion is exactly this: each card set is broken in some way, but you play it only one time. Dominion is essentialy this, and it is not broken, it's a different concept. I love it: if I hated it, I wouldn't be playing AFAoS in the first time.

Having said that, we can of course comment some of those ideas. It seems to me that B1 can be extremely pro-Hammer. But I liked almost every line. It deserves to be played.


...and then you go and say this...

PauloSantoro wrote:

If AFAoS would equal to Dominion, what would be the point? Of course it's different.


You can now argue that the devil is in the details, and that while the "brokenness" situation is the same, the games are different.
But whats the point? What are you getting at?
If you like the idea, just say so.
But your arguments are not really fitting, especially if they are partially contradictory...
 
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Tim Seitz
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PauloSantoro wrote:
I can see that Tim analysis is biased. "Arguably = French win"? The game must be played!

Biased toward what, exactly?

I've played the game a lot. A lot more than you, and dare I say it, a lot more than MW. The experience gives me intuition into how small changes are likely to effect the game. Of course you'll have to play it to be sure. Duh. But that doesn't mean my analysis is somehow biased.

Quote:
Let's see:

3 Regular Infantry cards are removed from the English Empire (they cannot be bought)
Tim: "Arguably = French win"

When you discard, you may discard how many cards you like (for free).
Tim:
"PRO-FRENCH. British almost never need to discard, until they are prepping for another siege."

But with BOTH rules, Britishes could choose to DEFEND and EXPAND. It would be a very different game. If the variants are supposed to CHANGE the game, we can't analyze as if players will TRY to play the same way over and over. If British knows he can't win by sieging Quebec, now discarding can be very useful.

I have played numerous games of pure settle rush with both sides. French have an inherent advantage if there's no military. If British lose the threat of going military, then French can settle and develop to their heart's content.

But in the case where the British LOSE 3 military units, the French can have a military advantage, putting British in a real tough position right out of the gate. Regardless, for either strategy, the French have the more useless cards: fur cards when going military, ship/military cards when going settling. Free discards are going to help the French more than it's going to help the British.

This isn't integer multiplication, where two negatives suddenly become a positive. Changes that help the French are going to help the French. They don't combo to suddenly help the British. Where I saw potential for other rules to affect things, I noted it.

Quote:
I only see negative mood in AFAoS forum. The game is better than that.

Who's being negative? I think you see what you want to see.
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"Throw something at the wall and see what sticks..."
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This seems cool...anyone know when it'll be available in English?
 
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It's a rules salad.

I like the score-tracking border.
 
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More responsibility abdicated by Wallace as developer. I don't mind that AFAOS is solvable--indeed, I've had a great time working towards that solution. I don't even mind having multiple scenarios but this an exercise in multiplication and fracture.

PauloSantoro wrote:
I still don't see the problem. AFAoS is admitedly inspired in Dominion. Do you think Dominion's developers could playtest every card combination? No way.

And Dominion is exactly this: each card set is broken in some way, but you play it only one time. Dominion is essentialy this, and it is not broken, it's a different concept. I love it: if I hated it, I wouldn't be playing AFAoS in the first time.

Having said that, we can of course comment some of those ideas. It seems to me that B1 can be extremely pro-Hammer. But I liked almost every line. It deserves to be played.


This is a false comparison. The mass of Dominion's permutations do not require deep play-testing because outside of player order and left/right binding the game presents equal opportunity to all players. AFAOS is asymmetrical to the core and therefore requires rigorous testing.

Wallace's hope seems to be that though the game will always be solvable, it can also provide a fertile space for the generation of new challenges. In a way I'm reminded of FFG's expansion "patches" which present gamers with a panoply of options to fix the base game through customization. In FFG's case I think it's broken that gaming community's discussion of the game itself--transforming every game into a game-system that cannot analyzed with any real depth. I'd hate to see Wallace go down that path. It's an easy way out, and it's not going to fix anything without lots of effort on our part.

I'll probably check back in a few months and see if this system has yielded any interesting scenarios but I'll leave the testing to y'all.
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Eugene
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This echoes the sentiments of my friend who sold his copy of FAoS months ago: I didn't sign up to be a playtester.
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