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Subject: "Marxism no longer corresponds to reality" rss

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17521635
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J
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I never learned about the Invisible Cloud People. I must have missed that day of Catechism class.
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Oh, so you actually think about what you are saying?
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There was a time it did?
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Seth Brown
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Marxism no longer corresponds to reality?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever hoid!

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True Blue Jon
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jmilum wrote:
I never learned about the Invisible Cloud People. I must have missed that day of Catechism class.


Aren't you going to tell him that the quote doesn't appear in the article he linked to?
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quozl wrote:
Aren't you going to tell him that the quote doesn't appear in the article he linked to?

Does it not? I didn't feel inclined to even click the link. Feel free to check it and let us know though.
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jmilum wrote:
quozl wrote:
Aren't you going to tell him that the quote doesn't appear in the article he linked to?

Does it not? I didn't feel inclined to even click the link. Feel free to check it and let us know though.


It does not.
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quozl wrote:
It does not.

bbc wrote:
Ahead of his visit, Pope Benedict had suggested Cuba's Marxist structure "no longer corresponds to reality" and called for the adoption of a "new model".

Of course, there are many interpretations. One school, which started in Belgium in the 17th century, maintains that what he really meant here is that...
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"Cuba's Marxist structure" is not "Marxism".
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Xander Fulton
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quozl wrote:
"Cuba's Marxist structure" is not "Marxism".


He didn't say that, though. Closest translation was:

Quote:
Today it is evident that Marxist ideology in the way it was conceived no longer corresponds to reality. In this way we can no longer respond and build a society. New models must be found with patience and in a constructive way.
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XanderF wrote:
quozl wrote:
"Cuba's Marxist structure" is not "Marxism".


He didn't say that, though. Closest translation was:

Quote:
Today it is evident that Marxist ideology in the way it was conceived no longer corresponds to reality. In this way we can no longer respond and build a society. New models must be found with patience and in a constructive way.


Wow, so the pope wants to dump Religion? Cool.
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A pink unicorn could make the statement that "Marxism doesn't correspond to Reality".

It would still be a TRUE STATEMENT.

Marxism has always been based upon premises which were insane.

Darilian
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Mondainai wrote:


Now, does talking to cloud people make his point on marxism more, or less valid?
 
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XanderF wrote:
quozl wrote:
"Cuba's Marxist structure" is not "Marxism".


He didn't say that, though. Closest translation was:

Quote:
Today it is evident that Marxist ideology in the way it was conceived no longer corresponds to reality. In this way we can no longer respond and build a society. New models must be found with patience and in a constructive way.


Yes, but we were talking about the article.
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Chris R.
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"Marxism no longer corresponds to reality"



...but some still believe in its resurrection?

Isn't it just easier to believe in freedom?
 
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Who on earth are you talking about? (I'd say what but I don't want to be accused of hating freedom as well)
 
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bippi wrote:

Now, does talking to cloud people make his point on marxism more, or less valid?

It makes him less reliable.

Consider these two statements:
"Black holes emit radiation" -- Stephen Hawking
"Black holes emit radiation" -- Jenny McCarthy

I'd accept the first quote as true given the source.

I'd want some verification of the second quote, since the person saying it holds many other beliefs that involve magical thinking.

Now, it would be unfair to dismiss Jenny McCarthy out of hand, but it would be insane to take anything she says at face value.
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spoon wrote:
bippi wrote:

Now, does talking to cloud people make his point on marxism more, or less valid?

It makes him less reliable.

Consider these two statements:
"Black holes emit radiation" -- Stephen Hawking
"Black holes emit radiation" -- Jenny McCarthy

I'd accept the first quote as true given the source.

I'd want some verification of the second quote, since the person saying it holds many other beliefs that involve magical thinking.

Now, it would be unfair to dismiss Jenny McCarthy out of hand, but it would be insane to take anything she says at face value.
Yes the Argument from Authority logical fallacy does not apply here.

Anything the pope says on a matter for which he is not qualified can be taken with a pinch of salt even ignoring the extreme irony of his statement.
 
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Darilian wrote:
Marxism has always been based upon premises which were insane.


Such as?

The main gaffe seems to be in the capital cycle analysis which concludes that investment on capital always loses profitability over time, which is the basis for the prediction of the inevitable collapse of capitalism.

This was later corrected by Marx himself. Most later Marxian thinkers, and contemporary Marxists, do not hold the above as correct, either.

And I say this not agreeing with Marxism in very fundamental questions.
 
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I'd be interested in lurking a big Marxist thread with serious discussion and no "obama-is-bad" distortion, if posts are, say, 10-15 lines each. I still don't get Marxism really ... And I even took a course once, but dropped out, confused by "older Marx, younger Marx, in a footnote in a letter to X he wrote this but in a speech to Y he wrote that, and according to one disciple he said Z, but in the second Greek translation it became あ" and so on.
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William Boykin
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Marxism has always been based upon premises which were insane.


Such as?

The main gaffe seems to be in the capital cycle analysis which concludes that investment on capital always loses profitability over time, which is the basis for the prediction of the inevitable collapse of capitalism.

This was later corrected by Marx himself. Most later Marxian thinkers, and contemporary Marxists, do not hold the above as correct, either.

And I say this not agreeing with Marxism in very fundamental questions.


No, thats one of his conclusions that arises from the original methodology.

The problem with Marx is how he uses (or misuses) Hegel, and the concept of the dialectic.

Specifically, his assumption that social issues drive all change- thus, his idea of historical materialism he becomes mere economic reductionism.

Darilian
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Mondainai wrote:
I'd be interested in lurking a big Marxist thread with serious discussion and no "obama-is-bad" distortion, if posts are, say, 10-15 lines each. I still don't get Marxism really ... And I even took a course once, but dropped out, confused by "older Marx, younger Marx, in a footnote in a letter to X he wrote this but in a speech to Y he wrote that, and according to one disciple he said Z, but in the second Greek translation it became あ" and so on.


Well jeeze, if we are making requests like that, can we also have an "older Wittgenstein, younger Wittgenstein" thread? Because I gotta tell you, I still can't decide if it's a rabbit or a duck.
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Darilian wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Marxism has always been based upon premises which were insane.


Such as?

The main gaffe seems to be in the capital cycle analysis which concludes that investment on capital always loses profitability over time, which is the basis for the prediction of the inevitable collapse of capitalism.

This was later corrected by Marx himself. Most later Marxian thinkers, and contemporary Marxists, do not hold the above as correct, either.

And I say this not agreeing with Marxism in very fundamental questions.


No, thats one of his conclusions that arises from the original methodology.

The problem with Marx is how he uses (or misuses) Hegel, and the concept of the dialectic.

Specifically, his assumption that social issues drive all change- thus, his idea of historical materialism he becomes mere economic reductionism.

Darilian


But the methodology, while steering intellectual development, is not entirely restrictive as to the conclusions; in other words, other approaches can give the same outcome. In the 20th century, there are schools of political Marxism that do not use dialectics as the main tool of historical analysis and reject historical materialism, but reach the same programmatic conclusions.

(Interestingly, the conclusion about capital returns was developed by Marx before he embraced Hegelian dialectics, and was revised and rejected by him when he applied Hegelian dialectics to the question.)
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I am still puzzling how the application of Marxism to the countries it was originally developed for (namely Britain / Germany and to a lesser extend France) would have turned out historically. We have seen the application of marxism based theories in Russia, which was out of scope for Marxism, beeing a country yet to encounter the challenges of a Industrial Revolution at that time.

As for todays application: Having witnessed the deeply perverted and utterly cruel regimes, which stiled themselves as Marxist/Communist/Socialist* and respecting the fact, that the industrial revolution, which created the Proletariat, Marx targeted as base of his theory, has been overcome by most of first and second world countries, having resulted in societies, where the secondary industrial sector has lost importance to the tertiary sector, leaves the application of genuine Marxist principles unlikely, if not impossible.

*Which is not to say, that Marxism and it's derivates is per se morally wrong, nor that all Communist/Socialist nations are/were cruel/perverted etc. And certainly, I do not intend to disregard the atrocities nations based on other political principles have commited.
 
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
(Interestingly, the conclusion about capital returns was developed by Marx before he embraced Hegelian dialectics, and was revised and rejected by him when he applied Hegelian dialectics to the question.)


Where specifically do you find Marx making this point?

Also, can you offer some examples of tendencies of marxism that reject dialectics and historical materialism? And if they've rejected these, what in your opinioin makes them marxist?
 
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