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Subject: Quick Reveal? rss

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Taylor Bradley
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I know that being unrevealed has its advantages, certainly when playing just the base game, but I want to hear what others think is the best strategy when playing with the expacs. Specifically, we usually play CFB and Pegasus board with the treachery cards and no cylon attack crisis.

Maybe my group is just generally more suspicious that others, but it seems like the moment someone does something even a little suspicious then they are black listed. So I am wondering if a quick reveal is better than going the route of subterfuge. I know that tricking people and sowing dissent is definitely fun, but when playing to win I am starting to think its best to reveal quickly and just start hammering away on the humans with the abilities on the CFB. I guess this might be different in certain situations, like if you were the admiral then you might play it close to the vest and keep picking poor locations. I dont think one could keep this up for long though because one or two bad jumps and we are prepping the airlock.

What are your thoughts? Better to stay hidden?
 
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The key to staying unrevealed is having the humans waste actions. If they can't trust one another, they are less inclined to use XO's freely, and they waste more cards on skill checks covering for potential Cylon activity. Also, having them waste actions on the Admiral's Quarters or the Airlock during a crucial time can also be beneficial.

Once you start getting the humans working against each other, they'll do the work for you.
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David F
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What I really don't like about the Cylon Fleet board is that it encourages a cylon to reveal early and direct the ships properly, since the cylon fleet AI can be gamed without a revealed cylon manning it properly.

Revealing early is a much more powerful strategy when playing with the CFB. I don't like that (since it's more interesting when the cylons are screwing with you). I still stay hidden regardless, since stabbing them when they least expect it is more fun (for everybody, not just you).

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Michael Aldridge
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sadpony wrote:
What are your thoughts? Better to stay hidden?


I think it depends entirely on the player, the group, and the opportunities that present themselves. If you are the type of player who can't seem to do damage while staying sneaky without your group figuring out your plan and brigging you, it may indeed be best to reveal. But if you are even the least bit skilled at causing trouble while staying hidden, there's a LOT of damage that can be done simply by causing the other humans to mistrust one another. XOs are quite beneficial to the humans; if the humans know who the Cylons are, they can XO one another all the way to Kobol. But if the humans don't trust one another, those XOs don't flow quite as quickly, people get brigged and/or airlocked, and Crisis checks are more frequently over/undershot.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think it depends on a lot of factors. As Admiral or President, I would much rather remain unrevealed to use the titles to my advantage as well as to keep them from Human hands.

Another thing is the skill card distribution. If the group as a whole has a high Politics draw, then I think it's better to reveal early, because many of the skill checks will be Investigative Committee'd so you have fewer opportunities to spike and blame it on somebody else.

In general, I prefer to stay hidden longer (it's more fun), but sometimes the game doesn't lend itself well to an unrevealed Cylon.
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Jeff Thompson
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What I like about the game is that as the Cylon you can remain unrevealed and play "like a human". Eventually one of the humans will have a "choice" that isn't clear. As soon as they make it, applaud their choice, yet also throw in that the other choice had a lot of benefits, and perhaps the original choice may have a few drawbacks. Subtlety here is key. As soon as someone says, "Yeah, that was a tough choice, I would have gone the other way, he might be a cylon." You have accomplished your goal. Spiking a check as a cylon is most useful once the humans are in a jam and just before your own turn.

Playing a cylon well may require bluffing for multiple hours of game play. It is difficult.
 
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Taylor Bradley
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I think my group hasnt been using xo's like we should be. A lot of games we use very few. Same with investigative committees. That could be part of the problem.

I agree that it much more fun to pretend to be human and just make them second guess themselves all the time. And i guess having fun is the whole point! I just really enjoy nail biters when it comes down to the wire to see who is going to win so i want to beef up my strategies for both sides.
 
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Every1 so far has valid points, but I'd like to epxand on them....

.

I try to play it straight, but usually, stick around long enough to use my OPG, spike some checks, then get the dodge out of town. Sometimes, it's simply too much trouble for so little gain. Othertimes, going after civvy ships is the way to go, and the cylon locations work much better.

Other times, executing someone (Cain before she could use her OPG as a double bonus cool ), was the better choice than being all secretive
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/662516/battlestar-galact...

In this case, admiral got outed via checking loyalty card, so Starbuck just reveals knowing who her ally was and to avoid Brigging (-3 bonus due to her weakness).
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/627520/battlestar-galact...

.

Ripshawd wrote:
The key to staying unrevealed is having the humans waste actions. If they can't trust one another, they are less inclined to use XO's freely, and they waste more cards on skill checks covering for potential Cylon activity. Also, having them waste actions on the Admiral's Quarters or the Airlock during a crucial time can also be beneficial.

Once you start getting the humans working against each other, they'll do the work for you.
That will work, but to a certain point... If they use an Arrest Order, then no skill cards are being used there. Or if they're between cylon attacks, then they'll probably have some reprieve to divert actions into dealing with you.

And yeah, to address another point, if you can pull it off, then do so. Else, you get suspected somehow, or have your loyalty card checked and there's nothing you can do about it.

.

selwyth wrote:
What I really don't like about the Cylon Fleet board is that it encourages a cylon to reveal early and direct the ships properly, since the cylon fleet AI can be gamed without a revealed cylon manning it properly.

Revealing early is a much more powerful strategy when playing with the CFB. I don't like that (since it's more interesting when the cylons are screwing with you). I still stay hidden regardless, since stabbing them when they least expect it is more fun (for everybody, not just you).


Do you reveal earlier now that the CFB is used? If not b/c you still prefer "style points", then this didn't really affect you nor anyone else in the same camp. Some people still find the damage you can do unrevealed still greater, so perhaps some middle ground can be worked out there.

I do play with some folks who are essentially useless cylons, so for the sake of a challenge, I sometimes prefer they reveal sooner than playing as an unrevealed cylon who ends up being more helpful than actual humans.

Last but not least, CFB is a way to breath new life into revealed cylon turns. It couldn't possibly be worse than..
Are there enough cylon ships on the board? If yes, use Cylon Fleet. If no, use Caprica and find more CAC.

.

... eh, for all the other comments, indeed, some people have no choice but to reveal right away. For the life of them, they have no Poker face, and as soon as they see they have a cylon card, others see it too in their eyes. Until that improves, definitley cut your losses and reveal.




EDIT: grammar and typos, some clarifications.
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Keith B
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As a cylon I do dot pay much attention to the amount of damage I could do revealed (primarily because this can only be inflict on my turn - 1 in 5 or 6).

Thes question I ask myself is "Am I harming the humans enough?" (IMO the skill is in correctly gauging "enough").

If the answer is no its time to be less subtle. Its a roll of the dice but if you play it right very often you can cast doubt on the loyalty of at least one other player. The accusations then fly and you are a whole lot closer to victory.

I reveal only when brigging or execution is imminent or I am already in the brig (your reveal ability is often of no use).
 
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Chris Hurd
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I honestly feel like the factors for the merits of a quick reveal are all based off character powers. If you have the "brig a player" or "damage galactica" reveal, you're much more likely to use that early than the "-1 morale". It's also more likely if you can hit multiple humans with one damage token, or lock pilots in the ship by hitting the hangar, or lock a powerful president out of their office.

What other people (esp. Darren) already said is added on top of that. You're also much more likely to reveal if your character has a weak-for-Cylons OPG. Non-Admiral Saul Tigh has a high incentive to early reveal, as do Apollo and Kat. There's also a chance for an early spike-and-go from Boomer, Chief, and Dee. Those are all decent moves.
 
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Taylor Bradley
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So the general consensus is that if you are not under suspicion, then stay unrevealed just to waste everyone's time hunting you while still tanking some of the skill checks? but if the writing is on the wall then cut and run? Thats pretty much how I usually play but in the past I have missed chances to do something crazy just to keep suspicion away from myself.

If something comes up where I have a chance to do something relatively harmful but it will obviously out me immediately, is that still that I should do? Say am important skill check comes up and I am the only pilot but I throw in a lot of negatives so it wont pass but I am still a few turns away so I will more than likely be brigged or executed before I can reveal. Is this worth losing my "advantage"?
 
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Robert Stewart
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sadpony wrote:
If something comes up where I have a chance to do something relatively harmful but it will obviously out me immediately, is that still that I should do? Say am important skill check comes up and I am the only pilot but I throw in a lot of negatives so it wont pass but I am still a few turns away so I will more than likely be brigged or executed before I can reveal. Is this worth losing my "advantage"?


Depends what you think you'd get out of waiting for a better opportunity. As the only pilot, you can do a lot to help humanity, and losing you will make things awkward for them if space gets messy. The immediate tradeoff is between your reveal power (and possibly a supercrisis) and the fallout from the spike. If the spike has more impact than your reveal power would, then you should go for it unless you expect to get an even better opportunity later, and sufficiently so that it outweighs the effect of you playing pro-human in the meantime...

In general, waiting to spike (and spike hard) until it's clear which resource is most likely to cost the humans the game maximises the effect of your spike; an early hit on any resource will tend to be compensated for one way or another...
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Darren Nakamura
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I'd say if you can obviously spike and do some serious damage (2 or more points in resources or 1 point in the lowest resource), then it's usually worth sacrificing your reveal power for it.

Losing your Supercrisis to executions isn't as bad as it initially sounds. At worst, you want a Supercrisis, so you use a turn staying on the Resurrection Ship to draw one. Note that if you hadn't been executed, that turn would have been spent revealing, so in the end, the bigger difference between being executed and revealing yourself is whether you keep some of your cards and (if you're not in the Brig) whether you get your reveal power.

Another thing to consider is that it may even be good to soft reveal with a few turns left before yours if the situation in space is dire. At that point, the Humans are given a tough choice of whether to let you run amok or possibly sacrifice some civilian ships. When somebody soft reveals immediately before his turn, you know something bad is going to happen, but you can't really do anything about it, so you just prepare yourself to pick up the pieces. Forcing the Humans into tough decisions opens them up to doubt each other, especially if there is another unrevealed Cylon still out.

Speaking of that, there's another good reason to soft reveal with some time before your next turn. You may incite your teammate to soft reveal as well, sending you an XO in order for you to do something doubly bad.
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Taylor Bradley
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Dexter345 wrote:

Another thing to consider is that it may even be good to soft reveal with a few turns left before yours if the situation in space is dire. At that point, the Humans are given a tough choice of whether to let your run amok or possibly sacrifice some civilian ships. When somebody soft reveals immediately before his turn, you know something bad is going to happen, but you can't really do anything about it, so you just prepare yourself to pick up the pieces. Forcing the Humans into tough decisions opens them up to doubt each other, especially if there is another unrevealed Cylon still out.


You have some very good points. I never thought about soft reveals in that way before.
 
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sadpony wrote:
So the general consensus is that if you are not under suspicion, then stay unrevealed just to waste everyone's time hunting you while still tanking some of the skill checks? but if the writing is on the wall then cut and run? Thats pretty much how I usually play but in the past I have missed chances to do something crazy just to keep suspicion away from myself.

Unlike semi-co-op game with traitors, such as The Resistance and Werewolf where once the protagonists know who the bad guys, it's pretty much game over, the good guys win.... BSG also has board meachanics, card mechanics, and more traditional resource management. In Res. you simply just always vote down participants selected by the spies and never choose spies to go on missions. In Werewolf, you always lynch the werewolf. That's it.

In BSG, it's one thing to know who the cylons are. It's often another thing to deal with them. E.g. the cylons are about to choose poor crisis card events that reduce critical resources, they move civves out of position, or about to go on a Brigging spree.

In games like Werewolf and Res., you absolutely need to stay hidden. In BSG, you want to stay hidden, but as others have said before myself, a helpful cylon is a useless cylon. You really do need to make a judgement call about when to strike (something I still have a hard time wtih)

.

rmsgrey wrote:
sadpony wrote:
If something comes up where I have a chance to do something relatively harmful but it will obviously out me immediately, is that still that I should do? Say am important skill check comes up and I am the only pilot but I throw in a lot of negatives so it wont pass but I am still a few turns away so I will more than likely be brigged or executed before I can reveal. Is this worth losing my "advantage"?

Depends what you think you'd get out of waiting for a better opportunity. As the only pilot, you can do a lot to help humanity, and losing you will make things awkward for them if space gets messy. The immediate tradeoff is between your reveal power (and possibly a supercrisis) and the fallout from the spike. If the spike has more impact than your reveal power would, then you should go for it unless you expect to get an even better opportunity later, and sufficiently so that it outweighs the effect of you playing pro-human in the meantime...

In general, waiting to spike (and spike hard) until it's clear which resource is most likely to cost the humans the game maximises the effect of your spike; an early hit on any resource will tend to be compensated for one way or another...

Indeed.... one of my power plays as a hidden cylon Galen was for Low Supplies 7YG while Morale was at 5, with 2 full jump cycles left


Tory plays IC knowing there are 2 cylons out there (it was sleeper phase). Spiking the skill check would've outed me since IC was played, and it was a 6p with the current player's turn the guy 2 turns to the left of me, so there would be at least 2 humans who had the chance to deal with me (1 may have been the clyon, the other a CL).


I ended up putting in enough purple (from CP) and blue to make it negative. Tory and Baltar put in enough yellow to make it pass, but thanks to Tory's IC , I knew for sure that yellow was the largest contributing color, so I use Galen's OPG to make all yellows 0-stregnth. They failed. But they lost a 2nd morale b/c I threw in an Iron Will and at 0 or less. But then someone pointed out that a 3rd morale needs to be lost since Food was only at 5 cool I got Brigged, but reducing Morale from 5 to 2 with still 2 full jump cycles left really put the screws to the fleet.


This also got the other cylon (who was relatively new) to go on the offensive and finish up what I started, with a -1 Morale reveal power!
 
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Taylor Bradley
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ackmondual wrote:

I got Brigged, but reducing Morale from 5 to 2 with still 2 full jump cycles left really put the screws to the fleet.

This also got the other cylon (who was relatively new) to go on the offensive and finish up what I started, with a -1 Morale reveal power!


Very nice, reading all these makes me want to play some more
 
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sadpony wrote:
Very nice, reading all these makes me want to play some more


In the one PBF game I played, I had perhaps the most "master-plan-esque" spike I think I've ever managed. As Cylon Ellen from the start I was able to leverage a few misplays (including a poor destination choice by Admiral Cain) into getting Cain to burn her OPG and then was able convince Saul to scout for a jump icon, leaving us at distance 3, pop -3 on my turn. I used my OPG to assume the Admiralty, we lost the pop roll, I burned 2 fuel (burying a 3-distance) and awoke my sleeper ally (turned out to be Cain). Then the cherry on the top was Sabotage Investigated (the super crisis disguised as a crisis), which with an IC I was able to scare them into tanking, bringing the total losses on my turn to 3 fuel, 1 food, 1 morale and 3 population. That was then followed by some HUGE "brig-or-no-brig" skill checks. All in all well worth the fact that I was not able to use my reveal.
 
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