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Subject: Net Gain on Quests rss

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Big Head Zach
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In the interest of Euro-optimization, it might an interesting discussion to go through the entire list of Quests and determine just how balanced they are with respect to their requirements compared to their rewards.

For example, a quest that requires 5 adventurers and pays out 10 VP vs one that requires 8 and pays out 12 VP (i.e. is it better to get the first one unequivocally?)

At some point is it just more efficient to amass adventurers rather than waste time/actions going for specific quests?
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Kris Rhodes
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The quests are almost exactly balanced according to the following values;

Fighter/Rogue == 2 VPs
Cleric/Wizard == 4 VPs
1 GP == 1 VP
1 Card == 1 VP

The only exceptions I've noticed have been in high value quests--these sometimes give slightly more in reward than the above would dictate. I assume this is to balance out the fact that it takes more turns to get the resources, or something.

(Recruit Lieutenant is a special case ofc.)

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M. B. Downey
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Keep in mind you get the benefits from completing quests matching your Lord card. That must be taken into account.
 
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M. B. Downey
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And at the end of the game, all adventurers are worth one point, and each pair of gold worth one point. So it seems to reason that completing quests is an advantage on points.
 
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Paul Paella
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Count me in for an expansion. These are almost a given:
- More quests cards
- More Intrigue cards
- More Lords
- More Buildings

I'm hoping for:
- Lords with more diverse rewards
- Faction powers (cards to choose or pick randomly?)
 
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M. B. Downey
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Ghorro wrote:
Count me in for an expansion. These are almost a given:
- More quests cards
- More Intrigue cards
- More Lords
- More Buildings

I'm hoping for:
- Lords with more diverse rewards
- Faction powers (cards to choose or pick randomly?)


Did you post in the wrong thread?
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Lee Fisher
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bhz1 wrote:
In the interest of Euro-optimization, it might an interesting discussion to go through the entire list of Quests and determine just how balanced they are with respect to their requirements compared to their rewards.

For example, a quest that requires 5 adventurers and pays out 10 VP vs one that requires 8 and pays out 12 VP (i.e. is it better to get the first one unequivocally?)

At some point is it just more efficient to amass adventurers rather than waste time/actions going for specific quests?


Yes I was also curious to see analysis of this and how much you actually net for each quest and how much the plot quests should be "worth".
 
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Chad Miller
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downeymb wrote:
And at the end of the game, all adventurers are worth one point, and each pair of gold worth one point. So it seems to reason that completing quests is an advantage on points.


There are a few exceptions that I've seen, but all give a good early-game advantage (like "Recruit Lieutenant" which is no points but gives you an extra action for the remainder of the game)

EDIT: I guess those would be all the "Plot Quests" IIRC. I've only played the game once so only vaguely remember some stuff.
 
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Mike Forrey
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Setting up ways to get free resources can change the value of cards as well. Going outside the lords sphere of quests to gain ongoing benefits is also a consideration.
 
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Marty Kane
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As has been mentioned elsewhere, the quests that give ongoing bonuses are worth more the earlier they are completed. So completing "Recruit Lieutenant" on turn 2 or maybe 3 is good, but probably not worth the cost from then on. Same with the "get [?] at the start of each round" plot quest. Both can be really helpful but they each require plenty of rounds to pay back their costs.

Getting the plot quests that give +2 points per quest of a type that matches your Lord card early can be really nice.

There are a few different building-related quests that are sort of hard to nail down theoretically, but easy to pick in-game. The quest that gives +2 points per building you own was worth 18 instead of just 8 for me last game.
 
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Ben Hodgson
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Net gain on quests should also be considered with respect to time spent getting the resources, which in turn depends on which buildings have come out to distort the basic setup. The top piety and arcana quests are good gains (5 cubes + $2 for 25vp) especially if the time req (5.5 = 4 actions getting cubes and 0.5 actions getting $2 as one action gets $4) can be reduced by buildings offering multiple clerics/mages.

EDIT: At a closer look, we need to include an action spent to gain the quest as well, but we can start to measure the following for each quest:
1. Time cost in actions to gather the resources. 1 action = 1 Mage / 1 Cleric / 2 Rogues / 2 Warriors / $4.
2. The vp gained over the quest resources required in the first case, in terms of end game scoring. So, 1 cube = $2 = 1vp.
e.g. Shrine to Oghma quest takes 5 C + $2 to generate 25vp. So the Time Cost (TC) = 6.5 (inc 1 action to take the quest) and vp gain is 19 (25 - 5 cubes and 1vp from $2).
Dividing 2 by 1 shows us how much the quest actually increases the vp per action (I'll call this the Efficiency Ratio - ER) when collecting the resources for that quest. As far as I know, you want your actions to be as valuable as possible in terms of vp yield.

The strat thread on best scores suggests that basic actions tend to generate about 1.5 vp on average in terms of endgame scoring (basic ER = 1.5), but to win a game you want to boost your vp/action ratio to about 6 or so. This is done mainly by a mixture of efficient quests with a high ER and your lord bonus. The lord bonus favours particular quests, increasing the ER for them. This makes it more worthwhile completing a bunch of smaller quests, even ones that have a lower base ER but because they return cubes they facilitate a greater number of quests (and hence Lord bonus if they are of the right types). So, for a 4 or 5 player game, if we guesstimate 5 quests giving a Lord bonus of 20, then over the total 20 actions for a player, this amounts to an average of about 1vp boost per action. The 3.5 ER difference needed for the hi scores presumably comes from quests mainly and occasional intrigue rewards, and more efficient buildings.
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John Sugden
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The economy mentioned above also includes the cost of cards: If you look at the quests and board spaces that provide intrigue and quest cards, 2 cards = 1 wizard = 1 cleric = 2 fighters = 2 rogues = 4 gold = 4 quest VP.

When you look at quest cards, the non-plot quest cards that do not provide a wordy benefit generally provide a benefit that is equal to the cost of the quest card (2 VP) plus the cost of the resources. This benefit is in quest VP and/or resources. There is a slight level of variance for quests from this forumla, but most quests are within 1 point of this formula. Thin the City Watch is much better at a +3 VP reward, and the Crypt of Chauntea quest is much worse at -3 VP. the rest fall between +1 and -2 VP.

If you decide that this formula works and you want to get your fair share of VP from plot quests, in order to break even you must use the ones that provide a resource when you get another resource 4 times to break even (if you make full use of those extra resources). For the + 2 VP plot quests, 3 uses will break even. The calculation for the other buildings is a bit more complex, but you could end up losing 6 to 20 VPS worth of resources if you get the minimum benefit from the plot quest or you could turn them into dozens of VPs of surplus value.

Early plot quests are huge benefits in this game, just like early buildings are huge benefits (if they are buildings that get used every turn - which most will be). Beyond that, there are only a few other quests in the game that are worth going out of your way to get because of the value they provide. For themost part, you want quests that match your current resources or the resources you're likely to be able to get based ont he buildings in play.
 
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Ben Green
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Speusippus wrote:
The quests are almost exactly balanced according to the following values;

Fighter/Rogue == 2 VPs
Cleric/Wizard == 4 VPs
1 GP == 1 VP
1 Card == 1 VP

The only exceptions I've noticed have been in high value quests--these sometimes give slightly more in reward than the above would dictate. I assume this is to balance out the fact that it takes more turns to get the resources, or something.

(Recruit Lieutenant is a special case ofc.)



Can you source this evaluation?
 
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M. B. Downey
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There are several threads that analyze this exact point. If you can go back and find a thread from April, you can go back and find them, too.
 
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Kevin Bourrillion
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bhz1 wrote:
In the interest of Euro-optimization, it might an interesting discussion to go through the entire list of Quests and determine just how balanced they are with respect to their requirements compared to their rewards.


Okay.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoFn3TZKLWTUdFh...
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M. B. Downey
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kevinb9n wrote:


Answering your question about the Lieutenant....

It requires 20 points worth of materials, so does the Lieutenant yield 20 points worth of placements? One more placement should yield 4 additional points per round. So as long as you build him by round 4, you break even.

If you have a warfare lord, it breaks even in round 5.

 
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Ben Caras
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Victory Points, as with so many other items in this game are a complete variable. The ONLY constant is the number of MINIMUM actions each player receives in a given game. Threfore, As a basis for measuring the worth of an action, quest or building, the only number that matters is 'per action'.

In a four player game, each player is guaranteed to receive (4x2)+(4x3) actions (20). Increasing the number of actions you receive, the efficiency of each action (I.E. the net effect on you vs. your opponent) and when to complete each quest are the most important factors to consider during gameplay. Simply having the requisite adventurers available within your tavern to complete an active quest is not reason enough to complete said quest. And considering your actions have a direct result on your opponents actions (simply by removing one more choice from the available plays), the best play each turn is the one that represents the single largest net gain.

As a rule, be cognizant of your total number of remaining actions, memorize the quests and their rewards (60 total, 12 of each type and 25% of which are Plot Quests) and don't be afraid to complete quests that aren't aligned with your lord if they can be completed in fewer actions than it would take to complete those that are aligned with your lord. Sometimes, waiting for a single quest in particular will unlock a chain of completions that optimize the efficiency of each of your actions.
 
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M. B. Downey
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Bleeding Blue wrote:
The ONLY constant is the number of MINIMUM actions each player receives in a given game.


That's not true. It is possible there won't be a space available to put your agent. Though rare, it is most common in five player games.
 
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Ben Caras
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downeymb wrote:
Bleeding Blue wrote:
The ONLY constant is the number of MINIMUM actions each player receives in a given game.


That's not true. It is possible there won't be a space available to put your agent. Though rare, it is most common in five player games.


This only occurs if no player is capable of purchasing or putting into play a building before the 10th action of Round 1 (or Rounds 2 thru 4 if no single building can be purchased or put into play) or the 15th action of Round 5 if five buildings have not been purchased or put into play.
 
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M. B. Downey
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Bleeding Blue wrote:
This only occurs if no player is capable of purchasing or putting into play a building before the 10th action of Round 1 (or Rounds 2 thru 4 if no single building can be purchased or put into play) or the 15th action of Round 5 if five buildings have not been purchased or put into play.


Or if the Lieutenant, Ambassador, or both are in play.

 
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Jeremy Beaver
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kevinb9n wrote:
bhz1 wrote:
In the interest of Euro-optimization, it might an interesting discussion to go through the entire list of Quests and determine just how balanced they are with respect to their requirements compared to their rewards.


Okay.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoFn3TZKLWTUdFh...


And this spreadsheet has been SUPER updated with my latest spreadsheet.

Find it here:

Updated Stochastic Analysis of Waterdeep Quests

I've also submitted it to BBG for review and addition to the Files section so you won't need a google account to see the document.

And sorry for the necro!
 
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