jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Does it come back in play? In my first ever game against the Redhorn Gate, I could have cleared Caradhras with the Riddermark's Finest (after having already placed 7 progress tokens on it with 2 Northern Trackers and a Snowbourn Scout) but I was a bit hesitant to do it since I was not sure whether the location would return to play or not. Can someone clear up?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
just from the card text, I would say that it would come back into play if previously explored. unless there is a FAQ update or an Official response that is how I'll play it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
I am really surprised this has not been asked before (if it really had not). It would be the first time something could come back from the Victory display, would it not?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
I'm pretty sure I've seen the discussion somewhere around here before, but don't remember where.

the Dimrill Stair location has a travel effect that returns locations from the victory display to the encounter deck, but this is the first AP that has that mechanism in any of the cards (although Caradhras is more implied than clearly stated.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Fanchi
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
There's more discussion here, but as with many questions with this game, the answer is unclear.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
Thanks. Did not see that one. The same question, no definite answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
I think you can be very confident that Caradhras returns from the VP pile. The VP area isn't some "removed from game" pile which is considered untouchable. There's no rule to that effect. It's just another pile that's still in the game. To that end, for example, it's referenced by the Nameless Fear in Kazadh-dum to determine threat, ie it's in-game. So, if a card says to retrieve Caradhras, then you must resolve the card text. If Caradhras happens to be in the VP pile, doesn't matter, that's where it's retrieved from in order to resolve the text.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
I will (and have done) play it like that. I just never put enough tokens before 3b, not that I think that chance would come off very often.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Saloff
United States
Edinboro
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel.
badge
He's a card player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
There's no way to know one way or another until we hear back from Nate French.

We've been playing that it doesn't come back, due to nothing in the game referring to stuff coming back from the Victory Display except for The Dimrill Stair.

I can see arguments for either way though. Just have to wait until someone hears back from Nate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tristan Hall
England
Manchester
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
LIFEFORM - LIVE NOW ON KICKSTARTER!!!
badge
LIFEFORM - LIVE NOW ON KICKSTARTER!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
There are a number of cards which interact with the Victory Display so we play that it comes back.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
I often wonder what leads to such a problem. It could be easily stated on the card (as very often is the case in similar situations). So that leads me to believe it was forgotten, maybe they first meant making Caradhras another Carrock, thus immune to player cards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Saloff
United States
Edinboro
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel.
badge
He's a card player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
jpraibis wrote:
I often wonder what leads to such a problem. It could be easily stated on the card (as very often is the case in similar situations). So that leads me to believe it was forgotten, maybe they first meant making Caradhras another Carrock, thus immune to player cards.


Agreed. And it almost seems to be getting worse lately between this and the Ambush/Attack issue in just the first two packs of this cycle, not to mention the last stage of the Dead Marshes quest.

A few rules issues are bound to pop up in any card game just due to the volume of interactions between so many cards, but still, it makes me worried playtesting or design isn't doing enough and that we'll end up with a 30 page FAQ before we even finish two cycles, which is not fun.

You would think with only a handful of new cards each month this would be easier to keep in check...

They are lucky they made this game so damn fun. A lesser game would not be worth navigating this amount of rules issues.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
Official Answer
I posited to Nate that my answer (as per above) was correct. He replied:

This is correct, the Forced text will still reach Caradhras in the Victory display, putting it back into play.

The Victory points thing does increase the likelihood that you'll only have to do something once (as it won't cycle back through the encounter discard pile), but it's by no means an absolute -- in this case, if players get too far ahead of themselves via card effects they'll find a return journey is necessary.

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Morris
Scotland
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Join the BGG Folding @Home Team !!
badge
This user had more :gg: than sense
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
Jakub: can you change the thread title to indicate that we have an official answer, please.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas McGranor Jr
United States
Erie
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: If you clear Caradhras before 3b
Does this mean that we have to read French's mind about every card now? Why the frak doesn't he just make sure the cards say what they actually do? And does Caradhras also magically pop out of the encounter deck or discard pile? Seriously, this guy should have nothing to do with card games. I have never seen so many ruling that look like he just picked the answer out of a hat. First the rulebook is just a set of guidelines, now cards that aren't in play are targeted even when text doesn't specify? I wish I didn't love the gameplay, the design and editing of some of the most important aspects of some of these quests is abysmal.

Nate, quite Frenching up this game!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
alogos teeheehee
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
What happen then, if you explore Caradhras and take the Dimrill Stair ?

Your Caradhras is in the encounter deck, does that mean you have to search for it then shuffle the encounter deck ?

Does that mean you have to put it back from the discard pile if he ever had gone as a shadow card ?

Was it so hard for them to add this wording ?

Oh my ? what if you actually have the Caradhras as a shadow card and then, before resolving enemy attack, you use the Quick Strike with Legolas that put the 11th progress counter ?

Am I the only one asking myself such hypothetical/surely-never-happenning awkward situation ? Was it not their job ?

Is this rethorical ?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Duke Of Lizards
United States
Montpelier
Vermont
flag msg tools
Livin's mostly wasting time, and I waste my share of mine
badge
I am a breathing time machine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the Forced: wording is pretty clear
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Elias
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
The Janitor wrote:
Does this mean that we have to read French's mind about every card now? Why the frak doesn't he just make sure the cards say what they actually do? And does Caradhras also magically pop out of the encounter deck or discard pile? Seriously, this guy should have nothing to do with card games. I have never seen so many ruling that look like he just picked the answer out of a hat. First the rulebook is just a set of guidelines, now cards that aren't in play are targeted even when text doesn't specify? I wish I didn't love the gameplay, the design and editing of some of the most important aspects of some of these quests is abysmal.

Nate, quite Frenching up this game!


I don't see the problem, many of us knew this was how it worked just by the card wording...
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fishiste Fishiste
France
flag msg tools
mbmb
The Janitor wrote:
Does this mean that we have to read French's mind about every card now? Why the frak doesn't he just make sure the cards say what they actually do? And does Caradhras also magically pop out of the encounter deck or discard pile? Seriously, this guy should have nothing to do with card games. I have never seen so many ruling that look like he just picked the answer out of a hat. First the rulebook is just a set of guidelines, now cards that aren't in play are targeted even when text doesn't specify? I wish I didn't love the gameplay, the design and editing of some of the most important aspects of some of these quests is abysmal.

Nate, quite Frenching up this game!


This.
Again, an answer without any good explanation.
Does this mean the victory pile is not an out of play state? But you obviously can't target cards in it with a player card so that's not the answer.
Does this mean forced effects are stronger than out of play state? Then this mean you can play the Carhadras from deck or discard pile if you used the stairs, without searching for it... Too weird, that cannot be the explanation.
Oh wait! I know what it is. Another disguised errata! Like so many before it:
- Thalin and the absence of crows' moribund state while this state does exist for players cards (see Eomund)
- Uftak token during the first attack
- Willyador's healing with the quest aso...

I agree the game is in general terms freaking awesome but the absence of a real general FAQ is a disaster. A year after the release of the game, we are still waiting for a presentation of the correct timing structure and of the detailed turn sequence (since the one in the rulebook is completely false). There are so many unexplained issues (like Legolas tokens and active location's immunity or Thalin's ability and forced effects of the crows)... I can't understand while the follow up of such a great game is so poor.
Please Nate give us a real FAQ!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
There are any number of effects that have you search and retrieve cards from the encounter pile or from your deck. Both of these piles are "out of play". The VP pile is another "out of play" pile. "Out of play" piles are still "in game". Here we have an effect which effectively has you search all "out of play" piles and retrieve the card required. Yes, it could have said search all out of play piles and retrieve Caradhras. They didn't, for space reasons, or because they thought the intent was obvious, or for whatever reason. The intent here was clear to many, and to those who wanted it confirmed, it was easily confirmed. Not sure why it's a big deal.

Having closely followed the rules forums over the last few months, my understanding is that every question and issue has been answered / resolved. I've felt every resolution over that time has been logical and consistent with previous rulings (ie not made up as they went). If there are outstanding rules questions I've missed, let me know and I'll help get them resolved.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
PBrennan wrote:
There are any number of effects that have you search and retrieve cards from the encounter pile or from your deck. Both of these piles are "out of play". The VP pile is another "out of play" pile. "Out of play" piles are still "in game". Here we have an effect which effectively has you search all "out of play" piles and retrieve the card required. Yes, it could have said search all out of play piles and retrieve Caradhras. They didn't, for space reasons, or because they thought the intent was obvious, or for whatever reason. The intent here was clear to many, and to those who wanted it confirmed, it was easily confirmed. Not sure why it's a big deal.

Having closely followed the rules forums over the last few months, my understanding is that every question and issue has been answered / resolved. I've felt every resolution over that time has been logical and consistent with previous rulings (ie not made up as they went). If there are outstanding rules questions I've missed, let me know and I'll help get them resolved.


Seriously Patrick, FFG should have you on their payroll for the amount of work you've put into this game, Big Thumbs up!

I've noticed that most of the rulings are pretty much the most literal reading of the rules and just play it that way until I hear otherwise.

p.s., Pat, ask Nate if you can be the official editor for the FAQ...just sayin'
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the kind words Chris. I enjoy helping :-)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fishiste Fishiste
France
flag msg tools
mbmb
PBrennan wrote:
There are any number of effects that have you search and retrieve cards from the encounter pile or from your deck. Both of these piles are "out of play". The VP pile is another "out of play" pile. "Out of play" piles are still "in game". Here we have an effect which effectively has you search all "out of play" piles and retrieve the card required. Yes, it could have said search all out of play piles and retrieve Caradhras. They didn't, for space reasons, or because they thought the intent was obvious, or for whatever reason. The intent here was clear to many, and to those who wanted it confirmed, it was easily confirmed. Not sure why it's a big deal.

Having closely followed the rules forums over the last few months, my understanding is that every question and issue has been answered / resolved. I've felt every resolution over that time has been logical and consistent with previous rulings (ie not made up as they went). If there are outstanding rules questions I've missed, let me know and I'll help get them resolved.


I can't agree with you. I am also closely following the rules forums. It's just I'm reading rulements here and on FFG but discussing them on french forums with other players. And the only reason because I finds some solutions is because I'm also playing Game of Thrones and both games have obvious similar gamesystems in terms of turn sequences and, hopefully, timing structures. But it does need to be written in a FAQ.

On the Carhadras matter, the rule is that you can't target cards that are out of play (p23 of the rulebook). That's the general rule. If you don't apply it, you'll find a lot of silly situations. Like if a forced effect says you must discard an attachment, you could discard one in your hand instead of one in play... Then there is the golden rule that says: a card can contredict the rulebook. There are all the cards you did mention but they are all specifically contredicting the general rule by saying "in your deck", "on encounter deck", "from your hand", "in the victory pile" and so on. The Carhadras doesn't contredict the general rule "you can't have effects on cards out of play". So if the Carhadras is in encounter deck (because of the stair) or in a victory pile, then, applying the general rule from the rulebook it does'nt contredict, you can't move it because of a forced effect that doesn't indicate "even if it's in the encounter deck, encounter discard pile or victory pile".
I'm fine with Nate's ruling being an errata and not a clarification of the card ; It's just we ruled it otherwise on french forum for the reasons I've explained. And I don't want all the solutions we've found being reconsidered because of last minute erratas.

It couldn't be an errata if:
- we consider the victory pile as an in play state but I'm quite sure we don't want to go there
- we consider that forced effect can ignore out of play states ; that would'nt contradict that much the rulebook that does apply expressly the general rule I've mentionned above for actions and responses but not for forced and when revealed effects ; but it's a Pandora's box there and it's going to introduce a far more big amount of questions (like my attachment exemple before) ; this would mean that if the Carhadras is in the encounter deck, you go search for it in the deck? ; I'm not sure this solution (forced effects are stronger than anything) would be a great idea. At least it's a rule and not an errata.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
alogos teeheehee
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I hope you don't take it like an attack toward you Patrick, like someone else said, we are thanksfull for the time you spent for us.

But I can no longer speak to an official of ffg at the moment without burning out of rage...

One player I played with and read this post raised a very good question in the situation I evoked earlier : when the Caradhras is dealt as a shadow card.

You don't find the Caradhras in your victory pile, nor the discard nor the deck... you know it has to be ONE of the MANY shadow cards dealt to the enemies. The problem is : wich one ? I'll gladly turn face-up all shadow cards, just to be sure whistle but this is quite an advantage for me as I now know all shadow cards without having use any ability cool

When I'll calm myself, maybe I'll post this on their forum. In the meantime, if you have the opportunity to spread the word, that would be very kind of you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jakub praibis
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmb
I have to side with the actual French here, not Nate (great points about Caradhras getting into the encounter deck, and especially being dealt as a shadow card just when you need to place it as the active location). As much as I love the game, these inconsistencies are just foolish. Same with the Bear attacking - do we suddenly have to guess he is getting a Shadow card (when the Wolf card had that specified earlier), and then you read in their preview article that you cannot play cards whilst the Bear is attacking - and that actually cannot be true.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.