Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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I've revisited this series recently after playing the AtB and not liking the way action/reaction was handled. I heard that the new rules were really good and wanted to give it a try. And I liked it through the first 3 or so firefights.

And then I got to the fourth one, where I was a german squad 5 or 6 counters facing about 12 or so russians, including (with an option) 2 russian mortars that could place out of my line of sight and still hit anyone they liked.

In the opening shot, the russian opened up with their mortar and outright killed my mortar team by spending a couple of CAPS to modify the roll (they needed 5 to hit, 9 to kill)

After that they repeated the try with against my HMG team with the same really good odds but got unlucky with a roll of 3.

They revealed a second mortar team and then opened up with that. My squad was pretty much halved in the first 4 rounds of play. By the end of the first turn (we didn't play it out much after the loss of my heavy teams) I don't think I would have had anyone left.

****(TLDR) The point of the story below****

In general, as the germans I've been short handed and have had to time some passes in the stream of russian movement to allow myself not to be overrun in the end by russian CC while I sit with nothing left to do on the turn. This firefight in particular hammered home how crazy that is, as sitting still while the mortars pounded away was almost sure death but moving would have left me tapped out for the russian wave.

Do I have the rules right? Both players have to pass in succession for the turn to end, correct? In light of this, how are people handling the inequity of actions between the two sides? I think the firefight would have been more fair if we hadn't used the option with mortars, but I'm loathe to call something unbalanced without more play. But I'm not going to play that craziness without learning what I'm doing wrong.

Responses of "learn how to pass and manage your caps" are not helpful, I'd like a little more detail in relation to this particular scenario if you'd be so kind.
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Jesse LeBreton
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I only like paying FF4 with full options and even then it is only an average fire fight. I never played it much. Maybe 4 times. FF1-4 are kind of intros that I don't really play. Only when FF4 is played with the extra units does it graduate from an intro scenario to a regular one imo. But even then it's not really the best the CoH system has to offer. I like FF5, FF13, and FF15 a lot. FF13 is my favorite out of the book while FF15 is a close second. There are also several downloadable FF's that are very good too.

Sorry to not really answer your question, but I see your statement as coming from someone who is skeptical about the quality of the firefights and I wanted to say things do get better as you play the bigger fire fights. And the fire fights in Price of Honor are all must haves. This expansion for SoS gives us 16 fine and meaty fire fights. It does not waste space on intro fire fights all over again and it also benefits from a few years of extra experience in scenario design for the CoH system. It's my prediction that all new box sets coming down the pipeline will have FF's as good as PoH has. AtB and Sos each only have a handful of really good fire fights in each due to the fact that the first several in each book assume no experience and therefore had to be kept simple. It's my hope that new box sets do not waste 1/3rd of the scenario book on learning scenarios. Anyway, do not give up on CoH because you found a few scenarios that you don't think play all that well. Remember these are rather old ones and the standard for COH scenarios is way better now. The proof is PoH.
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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That's fair enough, I really did only play the first 4-6 scenarios in each of the 1st to games. I always found that the number of units on the german side was much lower so passing sometimes was a really important thing to do.

But that 1 in particular seemed quite brutal. So maybe I'm just not crazy about the system when the forces are really uneven.
 
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Colin Raitt
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The mortar only appears in options. I agree its a bitch. If you have the off board artillery option you want to pass the first turn so it can hit.
 
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Gerry M
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Pardon my ignorance. What is the Pass supposed to simulate in WW II? And what kind of situations end up with both players passing?

Thanks,

Gerry
 
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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The game has an alternating turn structure, where I make a unit perform an action and then the other player takes an action. Each unit is allotted (usually) 7 action points to use before they can't be activated anymore. Each unit has a rate of action points it pays to move, shoot, rotate, etc. Once it's action points are exhausted, the unit can't do anything anymore.

The game system allows a player to pass, that is, take no action with a unit. However, if both players pass in succession the round is over, all units get their action points back and there are usually 5 or 6 rounds total.

My question centered about the gamey feel I get when a unit is just sitting there while the more numerous Russians run up and maul them. Usually, there is an attacker (needs spots on the board to be competitive, doesn't start on them) and defender (needs same spots on board, starts game there). This can lead to really stranger behavior where one person passes while the other guy moves up and then when most of the attacker's units are exhausted, starts to move their guys to pummel the action pointless attackers.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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i7dealer wrote:
This can lead to really stranger behavior where one person passes while the other guy moves up and then when most of the attacker's units are exhausted, starts to move their guys to pummel the action pointless attackers.


The guns blazing approach is the rookie mistake everybody makes. Ever notice how things appear to be all over for your side and it's only round 2? After a few plays, I began to think there must be a purpose for rounds 3, 4, and 5 to exist. It then hit me. Pace yourself. Don't move to much when you got plenty of clock left. If you are satisfied with how much field you have taken that round stop moving and use the remaining points to fire. Passing at this point would be ok because even if the defender passed as well you don't have to feel cheated. You paced yourself for that round and took all you needed. Do this every round and you will rarely find yourself in a position where all your units are spent and the defender sweeps in with fresh units and cleans your clock. If that does keep happening to you it is because you are playing the game like you only got 2 rounds like I said earlier.
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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This kind of behavior is doable in a lot of cases, but in some firefights (particularly this one) germans start outnumbered, in the open, and with options presighted for getting mortared up pretty good.

My point is that the game centers a lot around managing this artificial thing about action points which really saps the realism from the game for me. My only thought about it would be to not allow the person with the extra units to pass (they could still stall, but not pass) unless it was to end the turn.

When the Russians are on offense, the game plays and feels right as the Russians (with the large numbers) aren't passing to try and rush you at the end of the turn. They are a steady stream of pressure. So, I'm trying to figure out how to encourage the Russians to actually act. But, other than 'playing that way', I haven't seen in-game motivation to make them do this when on the defense.
 
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