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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: 1 attack per enemy limitation and Quick Strike rss

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Santiago Torres
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Hello,

The limitation to make an attack per enemy engaged, does it only apply to the combat phase?

If yes, then would it be possible to attack an engaged enemy twice (or more) per round, using Quick Strike? For example, using Quick Strike in the Engagement Phase to attack it, and then attacking it again in the regular combat phase.
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jakub praibis
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I believe the example in the FAQ specificaly stated this, you can hit again (or prior) with Quick Strike but you can only use one character you control; originally it was intended that ranged characters of other players can join in but that was reverted.

ps: Even without Quick Strike players can attack an enemy more than once; the limitation is only for a player. Thus player A can use a ranged character to attack an enemy, then later player B can normally attack the same enemy when his turn is on.
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Santiago Torres
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jpraibis wrote:
I believe the example in the FAQ specificaly stated this, you can hit again (or prior) with Quick Strike but you can only use one character you control; originally it was intended that ranged characters of other players can join in but that was reverted.

ps: Even without Quick Strike players can attack an enemy more than once; the limitation is only for a player. Thus player A can use a ranged character to attack an enemy, then later player B can normally attack the same enemy when his turn is on.

Ok, thank you.
 
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jakub praibis
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And just to note: with Quick Strike you can still only attack eligible targets, normally those who are engaged with you (or other players using ranged character). Exception to this is of course Dunhere whose might can reach the staging area, the combo with Quick Strike may be among the stronger ones to get rid of an enemy and his threat prior to the quest resolution.
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Santiago Torres
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And can you use this combination more than once per round? i.e., if you have 2 quick strike cards and at least 3 characters, could you attack twice with Quick Strike and then make a regular third attack?
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Andy Mills
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You could, yes. Quick Strike bypasses the limitation on attacks.
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Stan Hilinski
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manydills wrote:
You could, yes. Quick Strike bypasses the limitation on attacks.

This is something I don't understand. Why does this card allow a player to declare more than one attack against an enemy during the combat phase? Or am I misunderstanding something?
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Andy Mills
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Because the card says you can declare it. The limitation on attacks is a game rule, and here the card Quick Strike is contradicting the game rules, so the card text takes precedence.
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Stan Hilinski
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No, in my opinion, it does not contradict the game rule. One could use quick strike and not break the game rule by simply not attacking the same enemy twice, so I don't think it's a contradiction.
 
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jakub praibis
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Regardless, following the rules, you CAN Quick Strike an enemy that you have already (or will have later) attacked this round.
 
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Stan Hilinski
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jpraibis wrote:
Regardless, following the rules, you CAN Quick Strike an enemy that you have already (or will have later) attacked this round.

I agree with you. I just don't think it gives a player permission to attack the same enemy twice during the combat phase. Using Quick Strike during the Quest Phase and attacking the same enemy during the Combat Phase should be fine, I think. This is just my opinion though.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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The first step of the attacking enemies process is "Declare target of attack". This is where the rule about only being able to declare attacks against eligible enemies is applied. Nowhere else.

Doing a Quick Strike action is done in an Action step. In an action, you're allowed to do exactly what the card says. Remember, card rules override game rules.
 
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PBrennan wrote:
The first step of the attacking enemies process is "Declare target of attack". This is where the rule about only being able to declare attacks against eligible enemies is applied. Nowhere else.

Doing a Quick Strike action is done in an Action step. In an action, you're allowed to do exactly what the card says. Remember, card rules override game rules.

I do agree with the nature of the card, and these particular rulings, but I want to play devil's advocate here.

Yes the rule on declaring an enemy target and declaring attackers is clear, and yes card effects do override game rules, and this Quick Strike card ability doesn't have a 'standard step 1 of the attack phase' where enemies/attackers are declared as this is a card effect (and hence why ranged units or other units cannot participate in this Quick Strike 'attack').

However, there is a curious quote in the game rules in the Attacking Enemies (pg 20) section outside of the 3 attack steps, and hence apply to attacks in general:

"After a player’s first attack has resolved, he can declare
another attack against any eligible enemy target that he
has not yet attacked this round."

I'd like to draw emphasis on the word 'round', not this (combat) phase or attack sequence, but 'round', which is defined very clearly as all 7 phases make up 1 game round (and this could be very sloppy wording on FFG's front).

Now my emphasis is not on the declaration portion of the quote, but there is a sub-limitation placed on a player for only being able to declare "any eligible target that he has not yet attacked this round."
(note the word 'attacked').

Quick Strike card says: "Action: Exhaust a character you control to immediately declare it as an attacker (and resolve its attack) against any eligible enemy target. "

In other words, Quick Strike sounds like an "attack", and you resolve its 'attack', even though it may not be a normal attack it's still called an 'attack' (perhaps more sloppy wording on FFG's part).

I think that's where some of the confusion may be stemming.

So yes during the Quick Strike card effect, card text takes priority over the rules, but once the player reaches the Attacking Enemies portion of the game round he is bound by those rules in that section of the rulebook which do state that the only eligible enemy targets are ones he has not yet attacked this round. So if I hypothetically Quick Strike a Hill Troll early in the combat round, I haven't "attacked" the Hill Troll" yet, and an 'attack' hasn't taken place yet at that point, else I couldn't even declare the Hill Troll as it would have already been attacked during that round. Very odd use of terminology.

Any thoughts?



From the FAQ 1.1 that is oddly missing in FAQ 1.2:
Example: Tom exhausts Aragorn to attack a Hill
Troll, and Kris exhausts Legolas to participate in the
attack. The Hill Troll takes 3 wounds but survives. All
characters in play are then readied via Grim Resolve
(CORE 25). Because the Hill Troll has already been
attacked by Tom, he cannot declare another attack
against it this round except through a card effect. So
if Tom exhausts Aragorn to play Quick Strike (CORE
35) which reads, "Action: Exhaust a character you
control to immediately declare it as an attacker..." both
Aragorn and Legolas could attack the Hill Troll again.

 
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Patrick Brennan
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Well argued. However ... :-)

The first step of the Attacking Enemies process, "Declare target of attack ..." lists no prohibition on what you can / can't attack. All enemies you're engaged with are eligible to be attacked, whether or not you've Quick Striked them or not.

Therefore the not-so-well-worded later paragraph, "After a player’s first attack has resolved, he can declare another attack against any eligible enemy target that he has not yet attacked this round.", can be safely assumed to refer only to enemies that you haven't declared an attack with via Step 1.

So I reckon you can Quick Strike either before or after with no impact here.
 
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Andy Mills
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I think the example was changed in the FAQ because it had Legolas participating (via Ranged) with a Quick Strike attack, which is no longer allowed.
 
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You're right Andy, they messed up the example. They should've just modified the example to make it correct instead of removing it outright though in the newer FAQ version. Can't hurt to have more examples:

Example: Tom exhausts Aragorn to attack a Hill
Troll, and Kris exhausts Legolas to participate in the
attack. The Hill Troll takes 3 wounds but survives. All
characters in play are then readied via Grim Resolve
(CORE 25). Because the Hill Troll has already been
attacked by Tom, he cannot declare another attack
against it this round except through a card effect. So
if Tom exhausts Aragorn to play Quick Strike (CORE
35) which reads, "Action: Exhaust a character you
control to immediately declare it as an attacker..." Aragorn alone could attack the Hill Troll again.


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Andy Mills
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Agreed - examples are the things that let us draw distinctions between one type of effect and another, and are crucial for a detailed understanding of the rules.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Official Answer
I just wanted to confirm I'd answered this correctly with Nate, because the rules *are* misleading. Nate's reply:

The standard framework of the game provides players with the opportunity to declare 1 attack against each enemy each round. Effects that enable attacks are in addition to the effects enabled by the game framework, so a quick-strike attack does not "eliminate" the standard attack that the game is enabling that round.

So, yes, the answer stands. OP, can you append "- official answer received" to the thread header. Thx.
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David Conrad
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I'm still quite uncertain about this issue. I've read this thread and several others on other websites, and this is the third thread about it that I have resurrected. Nate says that Quick Strike attacking an enemy does not eliminate that enemy from eligibility for a standard attack. Fair enough. So far so good.

But I'm afraid that the order matters, and that standard attacking an enemy DOES remove that enemy from eligibility for Quick Strike. Quick Strike specifies that the enemy you use it against must be eligible. Standard attacking an enemy makes it ineligible going forward. I don't see why Quick Strike should be interpreted to be free of that restriction, since it uses the word "eligible" in its card text.
 
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alogos teeheehee
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I see your point, eligible is quite open to interpretation.
If the card was written as declaring a normal attack, "eligible" should include this. To go furthere, if the card required you to have the «declaration slot» free for that ennemy, it would surely tell you that you «consume» it when playing that card.
As it is written and as the dev have answered, Quick Strike is not a normal declaration, so it does not require to be able to do so. If it does not use your standard declaration, then surely, you don't need to have one in the first place.
Thus, having the «declaration slot» available should not be part of the "eligible" clause. You don't need to have 1$ for a 1$ gift that is offered to you for free.
 
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Michał Kamiński
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Latest FAQ 1.7 explains it once and for all:
FAQ wrote:

(1.11) Limitations on Attacks
When a player is the active attacker during the combat phase, the game rules grant him the option to declare 1 attack against each enemy with which he is engaged. If, through card effects such as ranged, a player is able to declare attacks against enemies with which he is not engaged, the game rules still only provide for a single attack against each of these enemies.
However, if a player makes an attack against an enemy by a card effect such as Quick Strike (CS 35) or Hands Upon the Bow (D 131), that is an extra attack and does not count against the limit of 1 attack.
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